SAM is dead

[xAFROx]

Agreed.

I personally think Ogi was a good addition, as it basically added another 2 GCD's over two minutes, which wouldn't destroy SkS choice but did make finding fillers a bit smoother. Charges on Tsubame and Meikyo were something I was initially open-minded about but quickly grew to dislike. All it does is shove SAM into a 2 minute burst window and in a very awkward way to boot. The further addition of Shifu/Jinpu buffs on finishers via Meikyo now meant you lost that feel of progressive build-up and Sen opener flexibility that once gave SAM more depth. Lastly, the addition of Shoha 2 and Fuga "upgrading" to a circle aoe were just the finishing touches that made 6.0 SAM feel less "together" than 5.55 SAM was.

Has anyone here been paying attention to the dps disparity that exists between tanks for the first week of P5-8S? It's pretty bad; GNB and DRK are ahead of PLD and WAR by 400-600 dps, which is up to a 10% difference. We haven't had job balance that bad since early Stormblood. Echoing my previous comments on job design/balance/direction, it really feels like things are being phoned in more than ever now, like the job balancing team is burnt out and just going "fuck it" while they throw solutions at the wall to see what sticks. Cave Johnson would be proud, but he would also probably fire them for huffing moon dust.

Been seeing a lot of talk about damage disparities since savage launched. If it's really as gimped as I've heard, that's a problem.

But regarding SAM, yes, YES, Ogi Namikiri is such a great capstone skill. The Meikyo Shisui changes I find are... bearable. The tsubame charges, I find really junk. If it just stayed as a single charge cooldown that would be great. Playing at 80 in roulettes it still feels really good to use. But at 90 it just seems... unintuitive.

Shifu/Jinpu I also find tolerable, but if meikyo has 2 charges then there didn't need to be that additional change. I don't know, I'll agree everything about samurai has felt a lot less flexible since 6.0 dropped. Still wanting kenki generation to be tied to positionals like before. It would at least make it so our guaranteed shinten requires we still be half-awake to do.

[CienFleur]

Looking at the origin of this conversation, I think it's a fair reaction from Deithwen when you are over here saying some dumb shit like we can't get upset over random job changes because there are worse problems in the world

Your Tears Are Delicious... More

[Keichi]

I played the days as a Samurai again.
I dont think, he is dead. And to kaiten did i not have much of a opinion (it was simply a 1 attack buff, without extra effect).

But, it feeled like, that the Samurai is missing something.

And, what it feels to is, that he need better distance attacks.
I noticed yesterday, that the basic aoe attack had some distance in the lower lvl. But, the skill evolved to a aoe without distance in the higher lvl. That feels bad. The only distance attacks, he has now, are Finisher attacks. In that point is he similary to the monk.

[CelestiCer]

I played the days as a Samurai again.
I dont think, he is dead. And to kaiten did i not have much of a opinion (it was simply a 1 attack buff, without extra effect).

But, it feeled like, that the Samurai is missing something.

Just FYI, you're responding to quite a old thread from " 08-23-2022 " after Patch 6.1 release on " 4-12-2022 " when Hissatsu: Kaiten got removed.

" Something being dead " is often used figuratively, as current SAM clearly functions well enough to clear all content. SAM's activity after it's gameplay got reduced to a singular braincell, with the buffs received due to TOP performances, made even more players flock to it. So statistically its not dead no, its pretty active.

" But figuratively speaking ", the old SAM is dead.

• Hissatsu: Seigan deleted and moved to PvP as Hissatsu: Chiten
• Hissatsu: Kaiten is removed
• Tenka Goken no longer a Cone
• Hissatsu: Senei is shared with Guren
• Hissatsu: Senei Kenki cost reduced from 50 to 25

All so many stupid PvE changes that did not improve gameplay, made it feel bland all to replace the Old with the New-Samurai which has the identity of basically spamming Shinten. Whenever I think of this Samurai? I just think of the short-video where the guy puts every shape into the Square hole... cause it's dumb. Like you said, it makes it feel like Samurai is missing something... Couldn't be Kaiten amirite ( Give it back... ) So in a sense? for many players, what they used to love the Old-Samurai pre 6.1 = Dead

Samurai however does not lack Distance attacks. We have Enpi with or without the Enhanced and our Iaijutsu is essentially a half ranged attack now after the buffs. Include Ogi Namikiri? and we're essentially adopting the definition of fake ranged... After how Square has pissed and mocked all over melee uptime in Endwalker, the last thing we need is more ranged attacks... at that point? just play a Ranged job. Mhm.

[Eorzean_username]

" But figuratively speaking ", the old SAM is dead.

• Hissatsu: Seigan deleted and moved to PvP as Hissatsu: Chiten
• Hissatsu: Kaiten is removed
• Tenka Goken no longer a Cone
• Hissatsu: Senei is shared with Guren
• Hissatsu: Senei Kenki cost reduced from 50 to 25

All so many stupid PvE changes that did not improve gameplay, made it feel bland all to replace the Old with the New-Samurai which has the identity of basically spamming Shinten.

Could you elaborate on the bolded ones?

Chiten feels more like Third Eye glued to PvE WAR Vengeance, and I'm not sure what you mean by "Senei shared with Guren".

[CelestiCer]

Could you elaborate on the bolded ones?

Chiten feels more like Third Eye glued to PvE WAR Vengeance, and I'm not sure what you mean by "Senei shared with Guren".

My post was about the changes before 6.1 Samurai changes, but I'll elaborate

Going back to " Shadowbringers " and Third Eye was still linked to Hissatsu: Seigan at Level 66 giving the fantasy feel of blocking damage and counterattacking with damage. They essentially removed Seigan from PvE SAM and shoved it onto PVP SAM, renaming it Hissatsu: Chiten as it reduces damage like Third Eye and reflects damage which mirrors the concept of Seigan's counterattack, only in a auto-playing manner.

Hissatsu: Guren back in " Stormblood " was not a shared skill, until the introduction of Hissatsu: Senei which didn't improve anything. Then later on reducing its Kenki cost by half. Combine that with Kaiten removal? and our resource management truly becomes... negative braincell activity with brainless Shinten spamming. It also show cases another button that came into our skill-kit that could have been removed over Kaiten or just never been introduced... and were not even at Shoha I and II yet, mhm...

[Shurrikhan]

Pipedream Adjustments Wishlist Incoming...

First, revert to pre-Endwalker, with some small fixes.

• Background Change: Conal and linear AoEs no longer require a target to use. If an enemy is targeted, the game will check both lines of attack and use the one (character facing / camera-facing or to-target facing) that will strike a greater number of effective targets.
• Background Change: A new class of actions called Techniques has been added. These may be used even in the middle of other animations. All pet skills, Sprint, and certain other actions have been moved into this category.
• Tenka Goken reverted to again deal greater damage to its first enemy struck (~30%), better making it a net gain in 2-target combat and more obviously worth using in single-target before gaining access to Yukikaze. Range of cone also extended by 2 yalms.
  
  
• Tsubame-Gaeshi (again) no longer grants Meditation stacks, and Shoha's damage has (again) been buffed accordingly, though to just 540p this time. [The one mostly good Endwalker change; 540 [180p/stack] used instead of 560 [186.67] for divisibility and internal balancing.]
• "Meditation Stacks" renamed to "Honed Blade" or the like, because the prior sounds stupid.
• Meditate now supercharges existing Honed Blade stacks with each tick, causing them to count as two each, if it would otherwise overcap. Its cooldown has also been reduced to 40s, and it now also reverses the drain of Fuka and Fugetsu, causing them instead to gain a second of duration with each second channeled.
• Meditation is again oGCD, but it does not begin to tick until the GCD has cooled, and now ticks per half-GCD's time (thereby more than doubling its rate and improving GCD-sync) but alternates between granting 10 Kenki (odd ticks) and a stack of Honed Blade (even ticks). If within .5s of a tick, it will hold other GCD actions for the tick, thereby keeping GCD-synced and allowing for proper queuing. [This makes Meditate more fluid without being an obligatory weave; every odd tick is worth 120p, every even tick 180p, for a total of 300 ppgcd. Compare against SAM's ~460 ppgcd from weaponskills (not accounting for CDs, including TG and Namikiri), and Meditate's former value of =<217.5 ppgcd.]
  * The buff lingers faintly, allowing oGCD actions not to break Meditation for almost a second, giving it a bit more fluidity; again, though, it can't tick while under the global recast delay, and it makes sense to keep the GCD synced.
  
  
• Base cast time of Iaijutsu reduced from 72% to 60% of a GCD (1.5s baseline); its enhanced version instead allows one to start Iaijutsu at up to 20 yalms' range if possessing at least 10 Kenki and allows Gyoten to be queued as a technique, causing it to automatically be used at the end of Iaijutsu's cast to gap-close and reach the target to complete.
• Tsubame Gaeshi is now available for 5 seconds after using Iaijutsu -OR- Tsubame Gaeshi replaces Iaijutsu when off cooldown and until a new Sen is generated; while Iaijutsu is shown, a cooldown ring for Tsubame-Gaeshi shows over Iaijutsu without replacing it or greying out its icon (similar to when cooling holding at least one charge but also cooling an additional charge).
  
  
• Shoha II replaced by a trait just causing Shoha I to launch red arcs of energy (a la Guren), dealing additional linear (or narrow-conal) AoE fall-off damage.
• Hissatsu: Senei is now a trait that causes Guren to swap instead to Senei when its line of attack would strike only a single enemy.
• Third Eye's Third Eye Opened proc now replaces your next use of Shinten or Kyuten with Seigan or Soten (new), respectively; Seigan deals an additional 100 AoE potency in a narrow cone and Soten deals an additional 100 potency to its first enemy struck, and both heal for damage dealt. [In this way, we have more animation variety without button bloat.]
  
  
• Enhanced Ikishoten replaced with Art of the Swell II - Tsubame Gaeshi grants a stack of Namikiri, to a maximum of two stacks. Each allows the use of Ogi Namikiri or Kaeshi: Namikiri. (Generally, you'd hold these to save 20 Kenki, since Kaeshi: Namikiri can only be used within 5s of Namikiri and includes Kaiten's modifier for free.) [Because people like their big swishy-thwoom skill, even if it's pretty braindead.]
  
  
• [Very Optional] Shoha can now be spent at any number of stacks and is now an oGCD mobile channel, striking every quarter-GCD so long as you are in range of your target; number of animation steps now varies with number of Honed Blade stacks consumed. (This animation cycles; if using for just 1 stack's worth each across three separate GCDs, you'd see each third of the animation, in order.) [I just want to be able to see the whole animation, without losing fluidity.]

Then some leveling changes...

• Hagakure and Kaiten moved to a far earlier level; base skill potencies can be reduced in compensation to be returned at Kaiten's original level, and Hagakure now grants 15 Kenki per Sen after <some level as early as 58 and as late as 80>, making it less of a trap.
• Gyoten moved to level 40 or so.
• Ikishoten moved to level 58 or so.

And then some new stuff for fun (spitball):

• New Trait: Art of the Storm (lv64) - Every 20 Kenki spent reduces the cooldown of Ikishoten by 1 second. Fuga and Enpi increase your movement speed by 30% for 3 seconds. Iaijutsu reduces the global cooldown incurred by your next Hakaze or Fuga by 33%.
  
  
• New Trait: Art of the Swell (lv68) - Ikishoten and Meikyo Shisui now randomly (or based on current Sen count / combo progress / whatever) grant either Swell: High Tide or Swell: Low Tide.
  
  High Tide - The next 3 casts of a random Kenki skill to consume 10 less Kenki and deal 100 more damage to their primary target if AoE or 50 more AoE potency if single-target.
  * If the random skill's recast times are fully consumed, a new skill we be selected.
  
  Low Tide - Your next 3 Sen consumed by Hagakure within the next 10 seconds grant an additional 10 Kenki and automatically grant Kaiten.
  
  
• New Trait (~lv74): Art of the Sword - Gyoten and Yaten gain a third shared charge and their recharge time is reduced by 3 seconds (from 8 to 5). Using Yaten duplicates your latest non-Iaijutsu single-target weaponskill in a cone facing towards you from your target for partial damage to other enemies. Using Gyoten causes your next non-Iaijutsu single-target weaponskill to additionally deal a portion of its effect to other enemies in a line.
  
  
• New Trait (~lv78): Art of the Storm II [replaces Enhanced Fuka and Fugetsu] - The effect of Fuka and Fugetsu are now initially enhanced, beginning at 14% before fading to 10% over their duration.
  Additionally, using Kaiten on a skill which grants Fuka or Fugetsu will cause it to instead grant Shin Fuka or Shin Fugetsu, which increases its effect to 20%, likewise fading to 10% over its duration.
  Only one or the other may be active at the same time; activating either while the other is active will double the prior's remaining duration but degrade it to the normal effect.

[Eorzean_username]

Going back to " Shadowbringers " and Third Eye was still linked to Hissatsu: Seigan at Level 66 giving the fantasy feel of blocking damage and counterattacking with damage. They essentially removed Seigan from PvE SAM and shoved it onto PVP SAM, renaming it Hissatsu: Chiten as it reduces damage like Third Eye and reflects damage which mirrors the concept of Seigan's counterattack, only in a auto-playing manner.

Alright, I understand what you're saying now.

I personally think that's stretching the logic a bit, but I can see where you're coming from conceptually.

Hissatsu: Guren back in " Stormblood " was not a shared skill, until the introduction of Hissatsu: Senei which didn't improve anything.

Oooooh okay, now I understand what you mean.

I was wracking my brain trying to figure out if I'd had a stroke or something, because I couldn't remember a time that Senei and Guren didn't share a CD.

But now I get what you're saying — Senei was just Guren but split into 2 buttons depending on target count, so it actually added ~nothing to the rotation other than some keybloat disguised as a cool new gift. And then everyone gobbled it up because, admittedly, it looked really cool.

Then later on reducing its Kenki cost by half.

Yeah I still don't understand this one.

I've tried to figure out their goal here and it feels like the Pepe Silvia meme.

Like I cannot honestly think of ever having a conversation with any Samurai player, of any skill level, who expressed difficulty pooling the 50 Kenki for Senei/Guren, especially after Hagakure got morphed into Ikishoten.

Combine that with Kaiten removal? and our resource management truly becomes... negative braincell activity with brainless Shinten spamming.

Yeah I get what you're saying now — you're constructing a map of how cascading changes slowly trivialised Kenki as a resource consideration more and more, culminating in the current nadir that it's reached.

Makes sense, I don't really disagree with any of it. My only major point of divergence is that I don't think Kenki was ever very well-designed and needed serious help as a resource from Day Zero, but I agree that its current state is atrocious by comparison.

[IckeDerTyp]

Healers and tanks aren't dead, so you lazy dps aren't dead neither :3

[CelestiCer]

Yeah I still don't understand this one.

I've tried to figure out their goal here and it feels like the Pepe Silvia meme.

Like I cannot honestly think of ever having a conversation with any Samurai player, of any skill level, who expressed difficulty pooling the 50 Kenki for Senei/Guren, especially after Hagakure got morphed into Ikishoten.

" Explanation Kenki reduction change of Senei/Guren "

You want to cast Senei within Raidbuffs, which is not directly immediately after you use Ikishoten in your opener. This is not difficult... It's about the balancing act, that you're trying to pool as much as kenki as you can into your burst phase and raidbuffs... This is all made extra thoughtless after the 6.1 changes of Senei costing 25 and deletion of 20 Kaiten. The balancing act while still there to max out DPS for raidbuffs? is nowhere near as nuanced as it used to be as it is just spamming Shintens.

Like " Shurrikhan " mentioned here in " the comprehensive Kaiten thread ", our spenders used to be 10, 15, 20, 25, and 50 Kenki. Now its just spamming 25's i.e Shinten.

Based on your other posts? clearly you can read an up-to-date skill-kit. Yet you sound like the most inexperienced player on Samurai topics. Analyzing a Job's rotation and skills? is not to be compared to executing one properly... and nothing tells me that you have experience with Samurai at all. Genuinely makes me wonder what interests you so much to posts so many reponses on Samurai threads, mhm...