The Limitation Dilemma: Why Final Fantasy 14's Limited Job was a Mistake

[TheRealMadruck]

I may be getting my people mixed up, but isn't this one of Titanmen's many many alts?

This really isn't a good argument, heck, ChatGPT could hold a better debate regarding the merits of loosening BLU's limitations.

Come on out titanmen, i know you're there, come out and play.

First, I don't know who Titanmen is and I factually have one main account I play on with only 2 toons account wide. This and my main on Aether datacenter.
Second, maybe ChatGPT could do better. But the information I relayed are my genuine feelings on this topic. I consider BLU as a Limited Job to be a mistake and if they introduce BST as one, in my opinion, would be another big mistake!

[MikkoAkure]

In extremes and savage, everyone is expected to have all of their abilities so... what's the problem, exactly? BLU might take longer to get abilities for than other jobs? Oh no the horror, the people that care about the job will still do it. Having a job that gains abilities a different way than other jobs isn't somehow making said job incapable of doing content... it just requires a bit more effort.

The problem is that no other job in FFXIV that is integrated with all the other jobs for content that has this level of complexity where 100+ spells are required to be balanced with each other as well as with everything else in the game and it has its own side-content as well. I think it's delusional to think that SE would do all of this for just one job only out of twenty and maintain it every single expansion to be balanced with the other jobs and the main content that is being released. Why should BLU get extremely focused support, more dev work, more abilities, and special content over everything else in the game? That is what I think is arrogant.

The only option I see we could have had for BLU that make sense integrated with everything else would have been a limited BLU that had the same number of abilities every other job has and perhaps a job quest that establishes that monster-learning happens off-screen for most spells while abilities other jobs get after completing quests could be explained as monster-learned spells we get in the quest. I would have preferred a BLU like that and I was a BLU main in FFXI. It's still disappointing to me, but there are other people who enjoy that content and I knew people who like BLU who don't think it's really BLU unless you're hunting spells just like there are people who don't see FFXIV's RDM or DRK as anything like past RDMs or DRKs.


Also, missing a couple of abilities because the player is lazy is one thing, but missing a whole swath of spells is another. Roulettes with BLU missing spells would be a nightmare since it would be expected that only a fully-equipped BLU would be balanced to just a normal RDM of the same level. You could have a threshold of "core" spells BLU needs, but a BLU missing spells beyond the core would still be objectively weaker than one with them all, as well as every other DPS. No other job is asking for so much time in order to reach the bar of being acceptable.

Ye olde idea of BLU just doesn't work in the model of this specific MMO exactly like how the old ideas of lots of other jobs don't exactly fit and had to be changed. Compromise has to be made somewhere and I don't understand why you think that BLU needs to have everything and be able to do anything just because it's your favorite. Compromises don't generally make everyone happy and I don't think this compromise made enough people happy enough to support the content they created for it. That said, I don't think they're going to throw away all of the side-content they created for the job just to overhaul it and give themselves more work balancing it to be a job that is meant for main content.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The problem is that no other job in FFXIV that is integrated with all the other jobs for content that has this level of complexity where 100+ spells are required to be balanced with each other as well as with everything else in the game and it has its own side-content as well. I think it's delusional to think that SE would do all of this for just one job only out of twenty and maintain it every single expansion to be balanced with the other jobs and the main content that is being released. Why should BLU get extremely focused support, more dev work, more abilities, and special content over everything else in the game? That is what I think is arrogant.

The only option I see we could have had for BLU that make sense integrated with everything else would have been a limited BLU that had the same number of abilities every other job has and perhaps a job quest that establishes that monster-learning happens off-screen for most spells while abilities other jobs get after completing quests could be explained as monster-learned spells we get in the quest. I would have preferred a BLU like that and I was a BLU main in FFXI. It's still disappointing to me, but there are other people who enjoy that content and I knew people who like BLU who don't think it's really BLU unless you're hunting spells just like there are people who don't see FFXIV's RDM or DRK as anything like past RDMs or DRKs.


Also, missing a couple of abilities because the player is lazy is one thing, but missing a whole swath of spells is another. Roulettes with BLU missing spells would be a nightmare since it would be expected that only a fully-equipped BLU would be balanced to just a normal RDM of the same level. You could have a threshold of "core" spells BLU needs, but a BLU missing spells beyond the core would still be objectively weaker than one with them all, as well as every other DPS. No other job is asking for so much time in order to reach the bar of being acceptable.

Ye olde idea of BLU just doesn't work in the model of this specific MMO exactly like how the old ideas of lots of other jobs don't exactly fit and had to be changed. Compromise has to be made somewhere and I don't understand why you think that BLU needs to have everything and be able to do anything just because it's your favorite. Compromises don't generally make everyone happy and I don't think this compromise made enough people happy enough to support the content they created for it. That said, I don't think they're going to throw away all of the side-content they created for the job just to overhaul it and give themselves more work balancing it to be a job that is meant for main content.

Thank you for being more level headed than I am. Every point you made here is pretty much why trying to make Blue viable in current content is a bad idea. But people insist on looking at the base surface rather than the whole thing.

[Allegor]

Moogle Tomestone Mage was a mistake and I'll die on that hill.

[Powercow]

The problem is that no other job in FFXIV that is integrated with all the other jobs for content that has this level of complexity where 100+ spells are required to be balanced with each other as well as with everything else in the game and it has its own side-content as well. I think it's delusional to think that SE would do all of this for just one job only out of twenty and maintain it every single expansion to be balanced with the other jobs and the main content that is being released. Why should BLU get extremely focused support, more dev work, more abilities, and special content over everything else in the game? That is what I think is arrogant.

But... this is what we already have, now. BLU already has more abilities and spell effects and UI elements and custom content than any other job. The only difference is it can barely be used for anything relevant.

Also, missing a couple of abilities because the player is lazy is one thing, but missing a whole swath of spells is another. Roulettes with BLU missing spells would be a nightmare since it would be expected that only a fully-equipped BLU would be balanced to just a normal RDM of the same level. You could have a threshold of "core" spells BLU needs, but a BLU missing spells beyond the core would still be objectively weaker than one with them all, as well as every other DPS. No other job is asking for so much time in order to reach the bar of being acceptable.

Have you played with a healer who only, apparently, has Eukresian Diagnosis? I have, it sucks, they barely contribute anything. Or how about an Ice Black Mage, or a Mudra-less Ninja? Bad players are going to be bad no matter what job they're on. No other job gets coddled like BLU does, and it's baffling. Like do people seriously accept that other jobs can be god-awful in pugs but, "Oh heavens no, we can't let there be a bad blue mage! Better shelter them and keep them at home!" Except even that falls apart because if you plan to do the high-end BLU content, guess what, you need your BLU skills anyway.

And if someone's going into high-end content and wants to play the job whose entire identity is learning skills from monsters, they should probably go and learn skills from monsters. I don't think expecting people to put in the tiniest effort for the central idea of their job, at least for high-end duties, is a bad thing.

That said, I don't think they're going to throw away all of the side-content they created for the job just to overhaul it and give themselves more work balancing it to be a job that is meant for main content.

Oh I doubt they will too. While they probably should buckle down and make an unlocked BLU, which would be a helluva lot less work than an entirely new job, they won't. So the best we can do now is hope to quarantine the mistake to one job and hope they don't repeat it.

[MikkoAkure]

But... this is what we already have, now. BLU already has more abilities and spell effects and UI elements and custom content than any other job. The only difference is it can barely be used for anything relevant.

I think you missed the other half of what I said.

We have all of those abilities on BLU right now, but actually having them be balanced with the other jobs would be a recurring struggle. No other job has this many abilities. Things are currently allowed to be unbalanced, whether it's too strong or too weak, because BLU doesn't need to be compared to the other jobs at all and is separate content.

There's no way that the developers would be willing to port all of that into an unlocked job without streamlining it. SMN had a whole rework just because they didn't like having to balance the pet, BLU wouldn't end up unscathed and would probably end up like I said, with no more monster hunting and a much smaller pool of spells granted at level up or story quest.

Have you played with a healer who only, apparently, has Eukresian Diagnosis? I have, it sucks, they barely contribute anything. Or how about an Ice Black Mage, or a Mudra-less Ninja? Bad players are going to be bad no matter what job they're on. No other job gets coddled like BLU does, and it's baffling. Like do people seriously accept that other jobs can be god-awful in pugs but, "Oh heavens no, we can't let there be a bad blue mage! Better shelter them and keep them at home!" Except even that falls apart because if you plan to do the high-end BLU content, guess what, you need your BLU skills anyway.

Like I said, having bad players missing some things already exists and is a bad thing. I don't know how "this is already a problem, so I'm OK with making it worse" is an acceptable argument. I don't see a world where a high level without a job stone or an ice mage is more common than someone missing spells on BLU.

[Ishe-P]

I think the resolution to this issue is to dispense with calling it a Limited Job altogether. I think they had BLU in particular in mind as side content with its own full on user experience, and certain compromises needed to be made to get the content out on time, and so we have what we have today.

They would have been better off not calling BLU a job of any kind. It should have been its own quest line, but again you can't level 1-70 or similar without engaging the job system, probably because it was easier to implement. Players who play FF14 to roll BLU as a main could possibly be disappointed by this, but how many people would that be exactly?

I personally like the BLU content because it completely flips the game upside down and allows experienced players to approach older content in a fresh and new way, and in my view that is something expansions should do but they have gone super traditional with how that stuff gets rolled out. I wish that table-turning was a little more fleshed out but am pretty satisfied with how it's been implemented to this point. The one criticism I have is that BLU isn't updated enough so the content is extremely niche and can make getting your achieve mints done or completing your goals much much harder to coordinate since it's not something for everybody.

Anyway, to the original point of my reaction to this: I think BLU was never intended to be a job in the traditional sense other than when it was first being sketched out. To get things done by whatever deadline they have, they co-opted the job system to make it work, and someone at the meeting said, hey how about we flip the table with this one, and went in the direction we have now. I would imagine any other new job introduced in a limited fashion will have similar tipsy-turvy things going for it as well, which I think is absolutely fine. After all, how much can you really change a 1-2-3 combo? What would BLU look like if it was truly balanced to fit the current meta? Would using Nightbloom or whatever be nearly as exciting? I honestly don't think so.

Thank you for ignoring my TED Talk.

[Powercow]

I think you missed the other half of what I said.

We have all of those abilities on BLU right now, but actually having them be balanced with the other jobs would be a recurring struggle. No other job has this many abilities. Things are currently allowed to be unbalanced, whether it's too strong or too weak, because BLU doesn't need to be compared to the other jobs at all and is separate content.

Oh no, I read it. Balancing out a good 99% of those skills wouldn't be especially hard and assuming it's impossible is just depressing to see. Have you no imagination? Plus, Scathe still exists, Summoner's Physick still exists -- SE has no problem with useless skills being on jobs.

Heck, if you end up with, say, 3 spells that effectively do the same thing with the same potency, the only real difference would be animation and spell effects, right? That sounds AWESOME. Aesthetic customization for a job, and all the work's already done in terms of art? Hell yeah dude that's sick. Imagine thinking, "okay I have a conal DoT spell, and I can choose between Bad Breath or Aqua Breath to really customize my animation." Or "alright for my line AOE, I have Drill Cannons or Glower, do I like shooting big robot hands or lightning eyes? Hm..." And, of course, those extra little effects like paralysis or petrify or whatever? Leave them on, but just like every other skill with those kinds of effects, they won't work on bosses or even most dungeon trash. Sure there might be a "better" spell for open-world content or FATE farming in that case but... who cares?

There, you only need to balance out the job having a certain number of skills, and if you get a new, say, single-target filler nuke, it's purely aesthetic. You could even have 2 BLUs in a party, both good players executing their job perfectly, and they could look wildly different. I dunno about you but to me that that sounds badass.

Oh, and since all the animations and the UI elements for customizing which spells to bring already exist, the majority of the work is already finished. It'd simply be a matter of consolidating which spells are in which category, and then even if a BLU doesn't have every conal-DoT spell, as long as they have just one of them they're perfectly functional.

There's no way that the developers would be willing to port all of that into an unlocked job without streamlining it. SMN had a whole rework just because they didn't like having to balance the pet, BLU wouldn't end up unscathed and would probably end up like I said, with no more monster hunting and a much smaller pool of spells granted at level up or story quest.

I'd agree with you, except they already added in all that stuff. All the special UI components and game mechanics for learning spells is already in the game. It'd actully be more work to take it out and replace it with what we have for other jobs.

I'm no stranger to SE taking the easy path when it comes to jobs, but they've already put in way more work for BLU than any other job in the game. Not sure why they did it with the intention of not letting it be relevant.

Like I said, having bad players missing some things already exists and is a bad thing. I don't know how "this is already a problem, so I'm OK with making it worse" is an acceptable argument.

So what's the solution to making it so there's no bad players? Even if BLU was given every single spell for free just for unlocking the job, I guarantee there'd be awful BLUs who only spam Bad Breath and Thousand Needles at level 90, or spam single target spells in AoE situations, etc.

I don't see a world where a high level without a job stone or an ice mage is more common than someone missing spells on BLU.

And nobody will honestly care. Oh people will gripe about 'em but you know what the party said to the mudra-less Ninja? Not a damn thing. Heck I got whined at by the other party members for telling the Eukresian Diagnosis guy that, honestly and truly, he can just nuke.

[fulminating]

Oh no, I read it. Balancing out a good 99% of those skills wouldn't be especially hard and assuming it's impossible is just depressing to see. Have you no imagination? Plus, Scathe still exists, Summoner's Physick still exists -- SE has no problem with useless skills being on jobs.

Heck, if you end up with, say, 3 spells that effectively do the same thing with the same potency, the only real difference would be animation and spell effects, right? That sounds AWESOME. Aesthetic customization for a job, and all the work's already done in terms of art? Hell yeah dude that's sick. Imagine thinking, "okay I have a conal DoT spell, and I can choose between Bad Breath or Aqua Breath to really customize my animation." Or "alright for my line AOE, I have Drill Cannons or Glower, do I like shooting big robot hands or lightning eyes? Hm..." And, of course, those extra little effects like paralysis or petrify or whatever? Leave them on, but just like every other skill with those kinds of effects, they won't work on bosses or even most dungeon trash. Sure there might be a "better" spell for open-world content or FATE farming in that case but... who cares?

There, you only need to balance out the job having a certain number of skills, and if you get a new, say, single-target filler nuke, it's purely aesthetic. You could even have 2 BLUs in a party, both good players executing their job perfectly, and they could look wildly different. I dunno about you but to me that that sounds badass.

Oh, and since all the animations and the UI elements for customizing which spells to bring already exist, the majority of the work is already finished. It'd simply be a matter of consolidating which spells are in which category, and then even if a BLU doesn't have every conal-DoT spell, as long as they have just one of them they're perfectly functional.

So what's the solution to making it so there's no bad players? Even if BLU was given every single spell for free just for unlocking the job, I guarantee there'd be awful BLUs who only spam Bad Breath and Thousand Needles at level 90, or spam single target spells in AoE situations, etc.

I don't understand the point. NuSummoner is controversial enough with its meaningless rotation of coloured gemshines/ruins, this just sounds like it will dissatisfy those currently content and those that want blue mage to be allowed in current raids. I think vfx are generally turned off on other people so this customisation will hardly be seen either.

The reason more work has been put into it than the other jobs is the same reason fisher is the only fleshed out DoL. Someone cared enough to make it into a minigame in its own right.

I also don't think you understand just how much stronger blue mage is with optimal play than water gun mage

[IkaraGreydancer]

Moogle Tomestone Mage was a mistake and I'll die on that hill.

It's quite a fun mistake which is interesting.