What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[ForsakenRoe]

I went ahead and summarized how each tank would look under this system btw, just breaking it down to their main gameplay elements. What do you think?

What I think is you missed the opportunity to have Fracture and Scourge as the WAR/DRK DOTs

[ty_taurus]

What I think is you missed the opportunity to have Fracture and Scourge as the WAR/DRK DOTs

Fair point. I didn't think far back enough to consider abandoned actions from the past.

[ForsakenRoe]

btw idk if you did or not already I've not looked, but I recommend crossposting this to the Tank section, to see what their opinion of a rotation like this would be

[Renathras]

2/3, the last one was SAM (i can see why you'd think GNB though) edit: dammit i got it mirrored i was doing em from memory, that's my fail i'll call it 3/3 then cos it does look a bit more like the GNB one than the SAM cos it's backwards

Heh, fair enough. I think I see what you were going for with the bit in the middle for the GNB/SAM one. I never realized their motifs were kind of similar. Bonus style points, the SAM one looks like a stylized S. The GNB looks like a stylized Z, which...would be cool if the Job had literally anything to do with the letter Z... XD

You might add the little points above and below the crossbars on the SAM one (how they have those little hooks on the opposite side from the big hooks from the crossbar), if you want a linear path, just have the cross bar big ones go passed it then have a short line segment come back to the crossbar with one of the abilities there. But yeah, it's just concept anyway.

Honestly, I thought the idea of having the constellation thingies the Job icons is pretty cool. Good/creative thinking on that one.

The reason maybe that some people have the 'as long as I get what I want' mentality might be because what we have now, we already 'had' in the past too. WHM didn't get Stone as it's filler, it always had it. We just lost what wasn't Stone, and Stone filled the gaps. People would still be able to spend most of their time throwing Stones in a potential rework, they don't necessarily 'lose' that gameplay. It's all down to SE to balance how much of a DPS loss it is to do that.

I'd believe this a bit more if people weren't arguing to change SGE as well - as it's always existed only in this form, and I even suggested once having it be the one that didn't change.

(Granted, if that was the case, it should be made where it can unlock at level 1 somehow, though that wouldn't inherently be HARD, it would just require more work; GNB, DNC, RDM, SAM, and I think RPR all start off in the three starter city-states, so it wouldn't be that hard to have a low level questgiver for SGE do the part of the "get to level 10, then you can learn other classes" bit. Honestly, that's an archaic invention itself that could easily be removed at this point in the game's life.)

But the point is, if people weren't adamant that even the Healer Job that has ONLY ever existed in this form ALSO be changed, I'd give that counterpoint more weight. It was one of the reasons I even suggested for SGE being the one that doesn't change under the 4 Healers Model, simply because there's no one to complain about it having things taken away that it used to have which they want back, since it's only ever existed in the form it exists in from 6.0-Present. I know Ty's part in that is he thinks SGE's lore means it should really be a complex, big-brain Job like SCH, but the point still stands that it's the only Healer that has never had anything taken from it to get to the state it's in now, and it's already considered the second easiest after WHM. Everyone else just seems to want all the Healer Jobs to comport to their desired "more complex" playstyle.

"as long as I get what I want" seems to include "and that's literally EVERYthing". Considering if any of you were saying "Sure, leave SGE alone, since this is how it's always been", that would literally be the 4 Healers Model in practice.

Hence I'd desperately try to avoid that, by having even the DPS 'High Materia' choices be utility based in nature. If one of them offers more damage, it's the insta-locked choice every time.

Agreed.

It's also why I say Jobs that are more difficult should offer more utility instead of more damage, because it comes down to this same kind of thing - more damage always wins, unless it's too hard to pull off, in which case it doesn't matter what damage it does, no one brings it because they fear no one can pull it off.

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EDIT2:

Also, something different about you (character). Did you change your hair?

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EDIT3:

I went ahead and summarized how each tank would look under this system

PLD:

Single target:

Holy Spirit (GCD filler)
Shield Lob (GCD instant cast DoT)

AOE:

Holy Circle (GCD filler - stuns enemies)

Both:

Confetior (GCD that reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Blade of Faith (GCD that reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Blade of Truth (GCD that reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Blade of Valor (GCD that deals very large damage and reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Note: These are your your Lilies and Misery, basically, and are used 15 seconds apart. Though I suppose for that to be RIGHT, there should actually be three of them. Not quite sure the best way to resolve that, but that's what this is anyway.

Fight or Flight (oGCD that increases the amount of healing done by your mitigation abilities, the amount of damage down to targets hit by them, and the amount of damage dealt by attacks)
Note: This is Presence of Mind, so obviously it's going to be both offensive and defensive.

Expacion (oGCD that increases defense and does an AOE attack)
Note: This is Assize.

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PLD is now the WHM of Tanks and a Caster Tank in one go. (I'd honestly be kind of fine with this, lol)

Obviously, this isn't its defensive kit, which would be...extensive and redundant. PLD would be basically unkillable.

EDIT4: (stupid sexy Daily Limit)

Myep. I *do* want all four healers to have an actual kit and skill ceiling that isn't a series of barely-connected mostly flat potency healing abilities and spamming one attack spell over and over again. I wouldn't bore a first-time gamer with that dog barf. "Leave one alone" just curses people who choose that job with garbage game design. Which current healers 1000% are.

Ahem, case in point proving...

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

...and...

I'd believe this a bit more if people weren't arguing to change SGE as well - as it's always existed only in this form, and I even suggested once having it be the one that didn't change.

(Granted, if that was the case, it should be made where it can unlock at level 1 somehow, though that wouldn't inherently be HARD, it would just require more work; GNB, DNC, RDM, SAM, and I think RPR all start off in the three starter city-states, so it wouldn't be that hard to have a low level questgiver for SGE do the part of the "get to level 10, then you can learn other classes" bit. Honestly, that's an archaic invention itself that could easily be removed at this point in the game's life.)

But the point is, if people weren't adamant that even the Healer Job that has ONLY ever existed in this form ALSO be changed, I'd give that counterpoint more weight. It was one of the reasons I even suggested for SGE being the one that doesn't change under the 4 Healers Model, simply because there's no one to complain about it having things taken away that it used to have which they want back, since it's only ever existed in the form it exists in from 6.0-Present. I know Ty's part in that is he thinks SGE's lore means it should really be a complex, big-brain Job like SCH, but the point still stands that it's the only Healer that has never had anything taken from it to get to the state it's in now, and it's already considered the second easiest after WHM. Everyone else just seems to want all the Healer Jobs to comport to their desired "more complex" playstyle.

"as long as I get what I want" seems to include "and that's literally EVERYthing". Considering if any of you were saying "Sure, leave SGE alone, since this is how it's always been", that would literally be the 4 Healers Model in practice.

...as correct, at least in some cases like Semi.

Semirhage, something you need to understand - not everyone wants to be "saved" by you from "things you don't like". Also note "things you don't like" aren't bad. I know it can be new and scary sometimes, but things you don't like are sometimes nice. Sometimes they're really nice all the time, sometimes just a bit in moderation, and other times, not for you, but still fine for others.

[Semirhage]

Myep. I *do* want all four healers to have an actual kit and skill ceiling that isn't a series of barely-connected mostly flat potency healing abilities and spamming one attack spell over and over again. I wouldn't bore a first-time gamer with that dog barf. "Leave one alone" just curses people who choose that job with garbage game design. Which current healers 1000% are.

[ty_taurus]

I'd believe this a bit more if people weren't arguing to change SGE as well - as it's always existed only in this form, and I even suggested once having it be the one that didn't change.

Except Sage is only like that because healers are stuck in a pit of poor design. From virtually every angle, Sage should be the most complicated healer, not the least. From a lore standpoint, it's supposed to be one of the most challenging disciplines one can hope to master. From an identity standpoint, the job was quite literally designed as an answer to players wanting more DPS on healers, it just did a terrible job of achieving that identity. From a gameplay standpoint, it's locked behind potentially hundreds of hours of story.

Most people here are in agreement that it makes sense for White Mage to be a simple and forgiving healer, the only difference is your definition of "simple" is unreasonably rigid. I don't recall every detail of Roe's White Mage rework concept, but all it has instead is like 2 or 3 new actions that result in a relatively middling improvement to total damage output. My White Mage rework concept is 2 new offensive actions, an single target use for Holy every 40 seconds, and replacing the damage from assize into a self-buffing ley lines type action that's twice as large as Ley Lines and offers WHM a teleport for mobility. These are not complex or unreasonable ideas that take White Mage from level 6 Black Mage difficulty to level 90 Ninja difficulty even if you personally disqualify that as being describable as "simple"

[Semirhage]

...as correct, at least in some cases like Semi.

Semirhage, something you need to understand - not everyone wants to be "saved" by you from "things you don't like". Also note "things you don't like" aren't bad. I know it can be new and scary sometimes, but things you don't like are sometimes nice. Sometimes they're really nice all the time, sometimes just a bit in moderation, and other times, not for you, but still fine for others.

Oh Ren, my goal isn't "saving" you from poorly-designed jobs. You've made it abundantly clear you love one button spam depthless skill ceilingless jobs. Which are bad game design. And don't have a place in video games. Perhaps you'd enjoy a visual novel, or maybe a movie?

Horribly-designed one-note snoozeathon jobs can't exist in a healthy space with well-designed ones. Their flaws just become more apparent.

You just don't want a skill ceiling because you have no interest in improving, and you don't want people to possibly be better at your chosen job than you, so you want to forbid the ability to get better at them. Something YOU need to understand is that some people don't want to have zero room for improvement, and the "things you like" are things that unreasonably restrain other people who play your job just so you don't possibly look bad.

[Aravell]

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

Can you please stop acting like you're some magnanimous figure that's kindly understanding and wants to give us what we want? You've constantly shown that you don't care one bit about the people who liked HW and SB gameplay losing everything and getting pissed off, but god forbid an EW player gets pissed off instead. Please get over yourself, it's very tiring that you consistently put yourself above others when we're all arguing for our own self-interests in the end, like how you're arguing for one healer to remain as is, except you're pretending you're holding a higher position because you already have what you want right now.

[GrimGale]

Ofc the issue with getting the other "grown up" healers deeper and more complex deepus gameplay, is then the "Complexity reward" associated with them. 3 out of 4 healers are complicated and thus logically and reasonably demand a potency reward, more work=more impact.
That leaves the 1 simple 1 button 1 dot healer as an outlier in terms of "deserved" potency.

I guess in the sense of fairness, either all healers get a rework that gives them depth to justify the balance between them or none do?

[Shurrikhan]

Ofc the issue with getting the other "grown up" healers deeper and more complex deepus gameplay, is then the "Complexity reward" associated with them. 3 out of 4 healers are complicated and thus logically and reasonably demand a potency reward, more work=more impact.
That leaves the 1 simple 1 button 1 dot healer as an outlier in terms of "deserved" potency.

I guess in the sense of fairness, either all healers get a rework that gives them depth to justify the balance between them or none do?

Fair? Or fair™?

Fair would be decently accessible floors and high ceilings, though each based around different core mechanics -- to the point that few can agree on which are the hardest and which are the easiest.

Fair™? Gotta be willing to sacrifice balance accounting for most/all avenues of advantage in favor of parity of output regardless of the leniency, foolproof-ness, and near-zero downtime complexity of the one healer that must be left with a shin-high ceiling to appease the poor, otherwise-victimized players who'd like to do Ultimate with the rotational ease of doing Sastasha.