On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

G'raha probably shouldn't have jumped ship from a world that wasn't in so bad a shape after all, and they could have made good use of the tower for their own technology. But he's here now and we can't send him back so we might as well make the most of it.

Sorry for replying to this late, but I just now remembered that, hilariously, Tales from the Shadows outlines that this is exactly why the majority of the Ironworks and the rest of the world refused to cooperate with Cid's plan of essentially giving up on the present, and then potentially erasing it entirely, in 8UC - however, of course, in this context (because Cid wants to do it for the benefit of the Warrior of Light), their desire to focus on the present is framed in a vaguely negative-leaning sense, and Cid and his crew are framed as acting selflessly and for the sake of hope.

The Lalafell’s death prompted an emotional response from my feathered associate, who pressed his tear-stained cheek against the lifeless body. Some time later, once Master Cid and his colleagues had finally exhausted their supply of tears, they gathered for a lengthy discussion, their expressions growing ever more despondent as the talks continued. They eventually arrived at the conclusion that they lacked the means to restore their shattered world, with their only viable option being to entrust future generations with the knowledge that they had accumulated, in the hope that their successors may one day find a solution. This was met with some resistance, however, as many expressed disapproval at the idea of forsaking those in the present day in order to save a world they would never live to see.

They believed that understanding the nature of this catastrophe could reveal a means by which it might be averted entirely. Their aim was to change the past to create an alternate reality in which the Calamity never occurred─a feat rendered conceivable by their knowledge of the advanced technologies of fallen civilizations. However, many of those who would bear the burden of continued existence in a world ravaged by Black Rose failed to see this as a viable stratagem. Such responses were consistent with my projections, as it is generally the primary objective of all life-forms to secure their own survival in the here and now.

Many of Master Cid’s followers either refused to cooperate or expressed a desire to leave the Ironworks altogether. Certain former employees went as far as to appropriate equipment and supplies by force before heading into the wilderness to fend for themselves.

Although the vast majority opposed Master Cid’s radical proposition, a select few remained to lend their assistance. Research into the Eighth Umbral Calamity continued, aided by experts in the fields of magic and aetherial science. During this period, one loyal scholar noted that while preventing the disaster may not solve all of the problems that had afflicted the world of the past, the one dubbed the “Warrior of Light” would still be alive. The various members of the team each had their own personal connection with the deceased, and the notion of creating an alternative past in which their hero survived the Calamity met with unanimous approval.

And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

It is...beautiful.

Ah, FFXIV.

[Lunaxia]

So my own thoughts on Hyth (forgive the length, I enjoy discussing my favourites and it's as much a mapping out of my thoughts as a general contribution to the topic): a few of us here were discussing him not too long ago and I touched on how I miss the intrigue and mystery that surrounded his original appearance, and the appeal of how understanding his true nature always felt just a little beyond our grasp back then (characterised by that faint yet tantalising idea he always saw and knew far more than he let on.) I basically resented how he was made into something of a footstool for showcasing the broad strokes of Azem and Emet-Selch's characters, and to that end he had a lot of what made him so interesting stripped away in favour of making his sole defining trait his affection for his friends.

...but turning that single-mindedness into a wilful apathy of everything and everyone else that doesn't concern him? I don't hate it. I don't know if I 100% agree that's what the writers were going for, but it's a fascinating interpretation nonetheless, and it does work. His English VA sells it pretty well to boot (though I couldn't properly tell if that dryness was a quirk of the actor himself or present across all languages) and I like how realistically that does make him pretty scary, as Brinne mentions, in an altogether different way.

What's notable to me though is how Hyth actually goes through a mini arc of his own if we approach the story from that perspective. He is very disinterested and unconcerned overall by what's around him to at times a frighteningly detached degree (that quip where he makes light of Emet-Selch's potential fate and his lampshading it by saying he prefers to look on the bright side of life was... um, interesting), and he's intentionally used in some cases as an example of the type of indifference Hermes struggles with; he is the one who offers the status quo for Ancients regarding "death" after all, and for being the CEO in charge of concepts and the like, he's as remarkably unbothered by the ethics surrounding it as all the other Ancients (human lifeforms like Meteion should invite some debate in an enlightened society, if we're being honest - it's a little funny how Hermes' qualms certainly don't stretch to himself in that vein, but that's another discussion entirely.) But then in Ktisis, we go on to see him pausing to acknowledge the destruction of the concepts there and wishing them well on their journey to the aetherial sea, in a way I actually find pretty moving. It's growth for his character, and shows it's not so much a cruel disregard as sheer ignorance, and he learns from it - which, thinking about it, then goes onto put Hermes' actions, and the justification behind... other plot points, shall we say, into an even worse light than they already are. Huh. (To think I was this close to giving the writers more credit.)

indeed

Hades being the mom friend was essentially canon for me from the day I finished 5.0, and I'm only ever overjoyed to see the story since further cement that each time we see him.

(And a +1 on his VA, I'm virtually incapable of discussing Eli without fangirling a tiny bit over how brilliant he was. Some of the English performances in this game really need more credit.)

[Brinne]

Yeah, I think at the very least it's clear that Yoshi-P and the writing's intent was to make Hythlo one of the primary figures demonstrating the supposed Ancient apathy, as you said. He's the closest thing in that group we have to meeting a "normal Ancient" who can speak for and represent their culture and viewpoints at large, but even under that pretext, Hythlo as the central example as to why everyone in his race needs to die falls apart very quickly for both the reasons you stated and because Hythlo is also paradoxically obviously designed to be a sympathetic and lovable figure. Basically all the individual Ancients we get to know meaningfully are, which is why Venat's montage becomes very transparent to me in terms of subbing in manipulative and generic strawmen in place of literally any actualized, living, breathing Ancient character we've encountered.

I often think that one of the critical mistakes the creative team made going into Endwalker was thinking that they could throw the Ancients as a whole under the bus so long as they properly uplifted the fan-favorite individual characters that happened to be Ancients, with Emet-Selch being the most obvious and perhaps gratuitous case. Endwalker obviously, at the same time it's insisting the Ancients were just emotionally hopeless and had to be put down, is absurdly (and I'm saying that as an Emet-Selch lover you have debated with on those grounds, Lunaxia!) propped up as an Incredibly Good Person. But that doesn't work. Speaking for myself, I truly fell in love with the Ancients and Amaurot themselves, and instantly feel much more outraged at attempts to malign them than any towards Emet-Selch individually. I love his character dearly, but he has certainly pulled enough utterly horrible things that I basically shrug and go "totally valid" at people who dislike them and him, because anyone certainly has absolute right to. I'd go as far as to say that what ultimately sold me on Emet-Selch as a character was his emotional context in relation to the Ancients as the primary source of pathos, not the other way around. So for me, Endwalker was doomed from the start, in a way, because they were trying to thread the needle upside down and backwards at the same time.

You could arguably even say they're probably still making that mistake, given Yoshi-P's aside that he figures that the attempt to make the Ancients "scary" rather than "good people" to most of the audience ultimately failing could be ascribed to the individual charisma of Emet, Hythlo, and Venat. No, Yoshida. I - and most of the others I know - genuinely, honestly, simply love the Ancients, and the arguments Endwalker tries to make to paint them as alien and irredeemable mostly come across as ridiculous and insulting at best.

Which ties back to what you said about Hythlo at least beginning to learn that emotional lesson - I think part of what makes Hythlo compelling to me is that while he himself holds that general indifference and disinterest, his love for his two friends is intense, true, and absolute (if at times a bit unconventional, as reflected in the remark you referenced, lmao. oh hythlo) - and I think that part of what fuels that genuine, absolute love is admiration not just of their power, but of their goodness. Hythlo himself is not particularly compassionate, but he truly loves and admires Emet-Selch's compassion, and we can see him therefore enjoying himself greatly in pushing Emet-Selch past his tsundere barriers to act upon his kinder impulses. In some of the cracks, there, I think is the capacity for him to learn that you described, and that he shows potential signs of moving in that direction by the end of Ktisis. (And honestly, it's fine if Hythlo is never the most empathetic or kind person in the world. It takes all types, and I love seeing all the different kinds of very human people who number among the Ancient population. Part of what charmed me immediately, even back in phantom Amaurot, was exactly that.)

But I also want to note that the Ancients always obviously showed that capacity, and the willingness, to learn and grow even if you could make an argument (that I'm sympathetic to and would even agree with) that they naturally had room for improvement in their society. Doing the side-quests in Elpis where the majority of the Ancients are practically eager to listen to the feedback of a familiar, get excited about the perspectives they offer, and start incorporating them into how they go about things was enough to show me the inanity of the argument Endwalker tries to convince of us regarding Hydaelyn's decision as necessary and righteous, and every piece of canon material released since then has done nothing to assuage that feeling. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I guess that's risking treading a little close to that argument, but really, I genuinely think Hythlo is a great character even with Elpis, and a lot of his nuance goes a bit underappreciated because it's a bit more subtle and less in-your-face than others. There's a lot more going on with him than simply being "the nice one," as I think a lot tend to write him off a bit as.

...and on an unrelated note to That Argument, have I mentioned I love Athena? Man, she is great. Can't get enough of her.

... <_<

[Denishia]

*shrug* Yoshida's comments about the Ancients rang true enough to me.

As a location and collection of NPCs it ranked at its best as equal to Eulmore under Vauntry, with the same skin-crawling revulsion that I Did Not Like This Place. Venat as the most likeable introduced in 6.0 sat at the same fondness as pre-development Chais. Hermes was the most intriguingly written of the lot, and then I later liked Erichtonios because of the story of familial drama and another character that like Hermes shattered the illusion that Hythlodeaus touted. (my favorite minor NPC is Martyn from the Blue Mage quests; I like the pathetic) None of the other Unsundered NPCS really intrigue me except for the thought exercises of imagining current day people who have inherited pieces of their Souls and what they might be like (or the Twelve. But not really. It's a neat tidbit but not the most interesting or appealing reason to care about the Twelve). But story-wise and in more superficial design choices like the Art Deco skyscrapers, one note bland/ugly character/costume design, the only theme song that makes me mute XIV ...maybe not loving the Ancients is a minority but I know I'm not the only one.

I'm used to this position though, since I'm also one of those: Lyse and Papalymo were the Scions that I liked best and didn't care about any besides Alphinaud (and technically Estinien) until ShB gave them focus and development and even now they're not my favorite of XIV's cast. I don't want any to die or leave the cast, unlike the vocal Scion haters, because I want them to stick around and continue to grow and get new story. Excited for more Krile, for instance.

To continue this parallels thread: Elidibus sits at about the same spot as Ran'jit. Not a top-tier opponent but not at the bottom. Elidibus had more upsetting villainy moments but a slightly stronger pity after his defeat, and his fights were more interesting but I'm more curious about Ran'jit's unanswered backstory and seeing him return in a quest-line. Design-wise is...hm, equal. Maybe Ran'jit more because of the mystery. Themis's VA edges out on that comparison.

[Cleretic]

Sorry for replying to this late, but I just now remembered that, hilariously, Tales from the Shadows outlines that this is exactly why the majority of the Ironworks and the rest of the world refused to cooperate with Cid's plan of essentially giving up on the present, and then potentially erasing it entirely, in 8UC - however, of course, in this context (because Cid wants to do it for the benefit of the Warrior of Light), their desire to focus on the present is framed in a vaguely negative-leaning sense, and Cid and his crew are framed as acting selflessly and for the sake of hope.

Something that has occurred to me about the 8UC timeline, although probably not an intentional thing, is that the Ironworks gambled with the exact right piece, as G'raha and the Crystal Tower actually wouldn't really help in the task of dragging them towards the Eighth Astral Era. They just don't really provide anything useful for the task at hand, which I read as basically a Mad Max or Fallout situation; facing both mass death and crop failings causing a lawless wasteland. They couldn't have even made a Crystarium, because the main reason that worked was basically because Lakeland was ecologically fine, and just needed defending. (As a result I'd say that the places the 8UC timeline will see hope bloom from are actually more likely to be either Gridania and the remnants of their Botanist's' Guild, or Labyrinthos.)

This is in stark contrast with the notion of 'the WoL stays in Elpis to try to avert the Final Days', because the WoL is actually extremely important for the survival of the present day--not saying that because they're Superman, but more because they're relying on them coming back with useful information. Creating a new timeline in the Elpis time travel confirmably dooms the present-day not because the timeline then ceases to exist, but because the WoL never comes back with crucial information.

The characters certainly didn't intend this, and I have my doubts the writers did, either. But a G'raha-less Eighth Umbral Era isn't appreciably different from one with him there; an Endwalker Final Days without the Warrior of Light is doomed.

[Lunaxia]

Yeah, I think at the very least it's clear that...

I didn't actually know Yoshi had said that - if I'm being blatantly honest I don't pay a whole lot of attention to his commentary on the story compared to the likes of Ishikawa and Koji, who I feel are much more invested and in tune with what's being put out and how it resonates with the community. But if it is true, and what he says is a general sentiment shared by the team, that's... certainly something. I suppose it does help add up for me why they are so happy to nonchalantly cast the Ancients to one side while at the same time throwing bland NPCs in my face I'm supposed to care about when they might as well be pieces of cardboard for the emotional investment I have in them, even as I'm perplexed that's the conclusion I should apparently be arriving at. I was similarly quickly charmed by Amaurot and the NPCs there, and even as far as zone quests go (which I admit I often enjoy anyway - I find them charming and full of colour) I really, really loved Amaurot's world-building. I mean, I've never been so entertained by a discussion on foreign policy in my life as watching the scene at the Hall of the Rhetoric and I was a bit in awe how they managed to have such a simple moment offer such a succinct but thorough snapshot of the Ancients' mindsets. Elpis was a joyful continuation, and I was giddily skipping everywhere trying to soak up all the lore I could. I found myself really caring about these people.

...and you know, on reflection, I don't think that is an error or a total matter of taste on the fans' part, because surely the intention was, or should have been, to sell me on why this world meant so much to the villain in ShB, at least? You did your job! Would my indifference to their plight not be a failure of the writing? Were they counting on the brevity of their stay in their story to lose to my time spent in Hydaelyn? If so, I guess that failed rather spectacularly. As you say, Emet-Selch was lifted and made sympathetic by his love for these people in the first place; they were not made interesting by a connection to him, and it's a sign of what little they understood about ShB's success to see the assumptions they made and where they took things in EW.

As far as Hyth is concerned, I do think his character suffers from Emet-Selch being the sun around which other characters tend to orbit in his cutscenes. There are these curious little asides with him, to be sure, but the only meaningful interaction we have with him outside of reading between the lines of extraneous dialogue overlooks him entirely in favour of throwing a spotlight on his friends, so his nuance can sneak under the radar, and, well... I've said as much before, but I am highly critical of the main scenario writers given past experiences, and I'm more inclined to smell a rat in terms of the intentions for a character than use it as an opportunity to appreciate possible hidden depths. That's very much a me problem, as they say, though, and I appreciate reading what others may have seen that I did not.

Yeah, in these scenarios I'm not so much attempting to justify why the Ancients deserved survival - they were fundamentally deserving of that in my eyes, no matter how strict the interpretation of them you might run with - but I like to point out where the argument falls in on itself within the confines of the story itself, considering the opposing argument makes liberal use of "but look what the story intended!" as if it's iron-clad gospel and not based on a foundation that frequently and shamelessly contradicts itself (as evidenced by your exchange with Iscah, to which I hmm very meaningfully over and struggle not to comment on.)

I feel like I can sense your twitchy fingers over - ahem, wanting to express your love for Athena, and to that end I nod my head towards That Thread if you ever felt compelled to do so. I'd definitely like to read it.

*shrug* Yoshida's comments about the Ancients rang true enough to me.

I mean, I could not disagree you with more on practically any of those points, but more power to you for that potent collection of hot takes, which you are more than entitled to. I'm curious what turns you off the Ancients so much, though.

[Denishia]

I'm curious what turns you off the Ancients so much, though.

*shrug* Subjective taste.

Starts when Emet, a character that was obnoxious instead of funny or charismatic, directly responsible for the horrendous Allag and Garleans Empires & Vauthry's Eulmore, spews dehumanizing lines reminiscent of irl bigotry that Sundered aren't human because lack of magical power. Obvious how that could be an insurmountable hurdle. Nothing else about Emet hit for me except voice fit character and writing wasn't flat. Galling and false when the people of the First weren't lesser in any way to the Source's inhabitants. Ryne her own person, theme repeated with Gaia. Azem-related tropes dislike goes here if fit.

Emet called his world a paradise; of course it wouldn't be. Allag and Eulmore thematic mirrors heralded what it would really be. Plus as long-time fantasy fan, the "Highly Advanced Precursor Civilization" can be mostly misses for me.

Load into the Tempest: zone is dark, ugly and BGM - Not a fan of piano jazz in general, but that tune and variations except for "To the Edge" are the only tracks in the game I immediately hated.

Sighed because I knew Atlantis was down here. My Tolkien friends know I have little interest in Fall of Atlantis retreads.

We get to Amaurot itself. No fan of densely urban skyscraper city-scapes - prettiest part of this place was trees. Everything obnoxiously oversized when I'm playing a Roe for a reason. Sent to wait at fantasy DMV. Ascian robes a design choice I found lame but slightly better than the Kingdom Hearts version - but now every NPC is in a less visually interesting robe with masks (Woodwailers ew).

And the Amaurotines themselves even in ShB? Not convincing me of the paradise claims - feels like every other imperfect city the WoL arrives to and starts fixing. A taste of all the reasons to dislike the Sharlayans. An emphasis on the appearance of a monolithic culture where lives only had one defined purpose that needed to be contributed in the prescribed way. Echoes of theocratic Ishgard and especially Garlemald to which Nanamo refuted back in 2.0. Not even ghost!Hytholeaus was charming me to be interested in the people of this city the way that virtually all other NPCs and their culture and politics in various XIV locations would. The most interesting tidbit was the suggestion of other cities and places that weren't Amaurot - did they agree with Amaurot's assessment as the knowledge/power hub and use the same creation magics the same way? The paradise it was describing wasn't one that sounded like I would be happy in or philosophically agreed w/ and I was predicting someone like Hermes and already feeling sorry for them.

Come 7.0 Elpis gave even uglier robes, overdosed on Greek names. Thankfully zone is unlike Amaurot except for spirals on buildings and has new theme. Re-enforced the Sharlayan Forum/Eulmore but worse vibes. Already hating that Emet was the MSQ narrator, now more of him.

[Dikatis]

This leaves Azem. While not much can be said about them, due to their inability to sit still and how they explore the world, I think they have a combination of genuine curiosity for the world and a Death Seeker vibe to them. They're not just fighting to help people (though that's likely a big thing for them)...they're looking for someone or something to kill them in battle. The Ancients do seem to come across as having a Martyrdom Culture.

Meaning Emet worries about Hyth and Azem, Hyth genuinely wants Emet and Azem to be well, and Azem...wants everybody to be happy.

I don't really get how Azem would be a death seeker in any shape or form. They're the disciple of Venat, someone who inherently loves life, living, and the world itself. Calling Azem a death seeker is like calling WoL a death seeker for plunging into life-or-death situations as an adventure junkie when WoL would very clearly rather live than die (if they wanted to die they'd just call Julyan old). I guess you can headcanon anything, but I cannot agree with your interpretation that Azem, and by extension the Warrior of Light as their reincarnation, is somehow looking for someone to kill them when they have so much and so many people to live for and clearly want to live for.

You could ascribe those kinds of feeling to Zenos, but even then it's more about the euphoria of being locked in combat with an equal because he does not know how to express his feelings outside of violence because of his upbringing and the nature of Garlemald. He only kills himself at the end of Stormblood because he couldn't imagine being happier than he was in that moment and wanted to go out with a bang rather than a whimper.

[Turnintino]

I'm curious what turns you off the Ancients so much, though.

As someone who was similarly uncharmed by the Ancients, I'll say that I... just found them aggravatingly boring lol. I had broader frustrations with the Elpis scenario, mostly due to a personal hatred for time travel in stories clearly not conceived for it (and only slightly more patience for stories that were, tbh), and my own Emet-fatigue (as an individual, not so much because he was an Ancient). So all of those things maybe colored my first impression unfairly, since all of it made me a lot less receptive to the basic premise the writers were trying to sell me on. But, as I said, I wasn't terribly interested in the story of the Ancients or their plight, to begin with.

If I'd ever been intrigued, it was during ShB, when they were still sort of nebulous and alien, but even then, I wasn't itching for more, and nor was I eagerly receiving what had been given to me at that point. Like my impression of Hythlodaeus and his treatment from one expansion to the next, as we'd discussed in that other thread, I don't think there's a world where an attempt at fleshing them out wouldn't have disappointed me -- even when my bar for the Ancients, in general, was lower than it was for Hythlodaeus specifically.

All that said, precisely because of my misgivings with the Elpis narrative and my general disinterest in the Ancients themselves, I haven't touched the zone any more than the MSQ and Pandaemonium required of me. Maybe a more thorough exploration would change my mind. But I won't pretend that I'm inclined to do so any time soon. And there are things about it, like the origins of the creatures we've grown to know so well, that just makes the entire world of FFXIV feel so much smaller to me, in a way that only sours me on it all the more. The zone's pretty, though!

[Denishia]

And there are things about it, like the origins of the creatures we've grown to know so well, that just makes the entire world of FFXIV feel so much smaller to me, in a way that only sours me on it all the more. The zone's pretty, though!

That element to Elpis also gave the same feeling of shrinking the world-building of XIV into one that lost a lot of charm and depth - but because it felt so blatant that it looped itself around into an absurdity where at best these Elpis researchers are a fun-house mirror parody of the Dev team, so much so that it makes me wonder if certain researchers were created as stand-ins for different asset designers. Come to work, design a new monster mob for our game's over-world and only focus on that, and once you've created content that pleases your department head, eventually you'll be transferred or quit and thus done with this world. It's an MMO so we always need more shark bosses. The players won't know your face; you have the anonymity of being part of a list of names in the credits, but they'll recognize the mob. Where did this item or animal come from? We have to give a lore justification and now it's neat and tidy for every one. It's annoying but in a way that's more silly than sour.