On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

It seems kind of grim to think that our world is so fundamentally helpless and fragile without this one single person that it would surely be doomed if not for our presence and constant vigilance. RIP Etheirys in about fifty years when my WoL dies of old age, I suppose.

I still think it's sort of funny to act as though, especially considering recent developments in the MSQ, that if the writers didn't feel like it, they couldn't just whip up some silly aether jargon plot device within a patch and a half (if that) that would allow us to travel back and forth between both potential timelines, if there was a will to do it. Enter Y'shtola and Urianger through our inn door, as they have god knows how many times now. "We've been doing some research with the moon rabbits, and examined the Crystal Tower and it seems there may indeed be a way..." So on and so forth.

I mean, forget the recent patches, the game has been doing this constantly for years and years. We solved Tempering with magical fairie pigs, an FFVIII reference, and a handwave. Regardless, the WoL not being assed to consider even trying to help these people, who have done so much to help and support them - even if the attempt doesn't ultimately succeed - and instead just contentedly pocket their love and friendship given under artificial pretenses, sure is a thing, and leaves me feeling a way, and that way is, ultimately, vaguely contemptuous indifference.

I've come to see the writing of Pandaemonium as very, ah, disjointed? I suppose the terminology I would use would be that. I don't see much evidence that they'd given too much thought as to how the parallels between Athena and Venat truly made the Mothercrystal look. But it is what it is, I suppose.

Some of it seemed so ridiculously overt I honestly couldn't believe it, but who knows with this writing team.

[Lunaxia]

More fool me for even attempting to engage with a sentient mass of walking complexes. I thought that mentality died out with rage comics and copypastas, but there you go.

It seems kind of grim to think that our world is so fundamentally helpless and fragile without this one single person that it would surely be doomed if not for our presence and constant vigilance. RIP Etheirys in about fifty years when my WoL dies of old age, I suppose.

I've gone from treating the WoL feeling conflicted or torn up over the Ancients as basic, unspoken canon to questioning if I'm the strange one for expecting them to even care, given the writers themselves disregard them so readily and certain sections of the fanbase either view them with apathy or outright assert they got what was coming to them. G'raha et al. doing all of that [insert vague gesturing] just to save us and prevent chaos in a future timeline was suitably heroic and proportionate to the crisis at hand, but saving or preserving - even in part - an entire race wasn't even in the realms of consideration?

And lol, the tempering threat was concluded with such a whimper given how much of a plot point it was up until then that I'm still a little mad about it. It was actually a really interesting obstacle to contend with and made the dangers and story surrounding the primals, including the likes of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, that much more potent, only to take a trip to Matoya's Magic Shop and fix it with a cartoon pig.

[Iscah]

I've gone from treating the WoL feeling conflicted or torn up over the Ancients as basic, unspoken canon to questioning if I'm the strange one for expecting them to even care, given the writers themselves disregard them so readily and certain sections of the fanbase either view them with apathy or outright assert they got what was coming to them. G'raha et al. doing all of that [insert vague gesturing] just to save us and prevent chaos in a future timeline was suitably heroic and proportionate to the crisis at hand, but saving or preserving - even in part - an entire race wasn't even in the realms of consideration?

For me at least, it's "well, we're here now and I'm not going to voluntarily break the space-time continuum again".

G'raha probably shouldn't have jumped ship from a world that wasn't in so bad a shape after all, and they could have made good use of the tower for their own technology. But he's here now and we can't send him back so we might as well make the most of it.

And on the flipside, the ancients WILL go through that fate whether or not we make a feel-good alternative that might blow up in our (and their) faces anyway, so I'm going to stay loyal to this reality rather than try to create a second.

[Brinne]

G'raha probably shouldn't have jumped ship from a world that wasn't in so bad a shape after all, and they could have made good use of the tower for their own technology. But he's here now and we can't send him back so we might as well make the most of it.

Sorry for replying to this late, but I just now remembered that, hilariously, Tales from the Shadows outlines that this is exactly why the majority of the Ironworks and the rest of the world refused to cooperate with Cid's plan of essentially giving up on the present, and then potentially erasing it entirely, in 8UC - however, of course, in this context (because Cid wants to do it for the benefit of the Warrior of Light), their desire to focus on the present is framed in a vaguely negative-leaning sense, and Cid and his crew are framed as acting selflessly and for the sake of hope.

The Lalafell’s death prompted an emotional response from my feathered associate, who pressed his tear-stained cheek against the lifeless body. Some time later, once Master Cid and his colleagues had finally exhausted their supply of tears, they gathered for a lengthy discussion, their expressions growing ever more despondent as the talks continued. They eventually arrived at the conclusion that they lacked the means to restore their shattered world, with their only viable option being to entrust future generations with the knowledge that they had accumulated, in the hope that their successors may one day find a solution. This was met with some resistance, however, as many expressed disapproval at the idea of forsaking those in the present day in order to save a world they would never live to see.

They believed that understanding the nature of this catastrophe could reveal a means by which it might be averted entirely. Their aim was to change the past to create an alternate reality in which the Calamity never occurred─a feat rendered conceivable by their knowledge of the advanced technologies of fallen civilizations. However, many of those who would bear the burden of continued existence in a world ravaged by Black Rose failed to see this as a viable stratagem. Such responses were consistent with my projections, as it is generally the primary objective of all life-forms to secure their own survival in the here and now.

Many of Master Cid’s followers either refused to cooperate or expressed a desire to leave the Ironworks altogether. Certain former employees went as far as to appropriate equipment and supplies by force before heading into the wilderness to fend for themselves.

Although the vast majority opposed Master Cid’s radical proposition, a select few remained to lend their assistance. Research into the Eighth Umbral Calamity continued, aided by experts in the fields of magic and aetherial science. During this period, one loyal scholar noted that while preventing the disaster may not solve all of the problems that had afflicted the world of the past, the one dubbed the “Warrior of Light” would still be alive. The various members of the team each had their own personal connection with the deceased, and the notion of creating an alternative past in which their hero survived the Calamity met with unanimous approval.

And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

It is...beautiful.

Ah, FFXIV.

[Cleretic]

Sorry for replying to this late, but I just now remembered that, hilariously, Tales from the Shadows outlines that this is exactly why the majority of the Ironworks and the rest of the world refused to cooperate with Cid's plan of essentially giving up on the present, and then potentially erasing it entirely, in 8UC - however, of course, in this context (because Cid wants to do it for the benefit of the Warrior of Light), their desire to focus on the present is framed in a vaguely negative-leaning sense, and Cid and his crew are framed as acting selflessly and for the sake of hope.

Something that has occurred to me about the 8UC timeline, although probably not an intentional thing, is that the Ironworks gambled with the exact right piece, as G'raha and the Crystal Tower actually wouldn't really help in the task of dragging them towards the Eighth Astral Era. They just don't really provide anything useful for the task at hand, which I read as basically a Mad Max or Fallout situation; facing both mass death and crop failings causing a lawless wasteland. They couldn't have even made a Crystarium, because the main reason that worked was basically because Lakeland was ecologically fine, and just needed defending. (As a result I'd say that the places the 8UC timeline will see hope bloom from are actually more likely to be either Gridania and the remnants of their Botanist's' Guild, or Labyrinthos.)

This is in stark contrast with the notion of 'the WoL stays in Elpis to try to avert the Final Days', because the WoL is actually extremely important for the survival of the present day--not saying that because they're Superman, but more because they're relying on them coming back with useful information. Creating a new timeline in the Elpis time travel confirmably dooms the present-day not because the timeline then ceases to exist, but because the WoL never comes back with crucial information.

The characters certainly didn't intend this, and I have my doubts the writers did, either. But a G'raha-less Eighth Umbral Era isn't appreciably different from one with him there; an Endwalker Final Days without the Warrior of Light is doomed.

[Lunaxia]

Fair enough, and thanks for the insights. I'm not really going to counter anything, since most of it comes down to a matter of preference regarding themes, aesthetics, character archetypes, tropes and the like, and that's an intrinsically personal thing very rarely swayed by argument, but I always like hearing other points of view.

Something that has occurred to me about the 8UC timeline.

Isn't the crux of the issue here that G'raha not being there is part of a plan where they were willing to wipe out a timeline for the sake of saving someone in the past? That that was a gamble they apparently decided to take, despite survivors of the 8UC wanting to live on and focus on improving the lot left to them?

[Denishia]

Fair enough, and thanks for the insights. I'm not really going to counter anything, since most of it comes down to a matter of preference regarding themes, aesthetics, character archetypes, tropes and the like, and that's an intrinsically personally thing very rarely swayed by argument, but I always like hearing other points of view.

Thank you. I couldn’t cover everything but I tried to list as many of the additional elements that stacked on top of why Amaurot was not going to appeal to me and how the choices like music and having the interiors as Art Deco which, okay not the worst design option but the association with the 1920-30s was another red flag in symbolic suggestion, meant that I don’t think that they could have designed a zone of NPCs that would turn me off more if they tried.

And the Tolkien fan that I am -epecifically Silmarillion and years dealing with some inane fan wank over Númenor (especially the Gift of Men and the Ban and the Sinking) and multiple hot take arguments about Valinor and the Valar with their role as stewards of the planet and Fëanor’s war crimes apologia- carried baggage of its own. Though on the superficial level to Amaurot with those examples, my positions would be closer to yours, if you believe it (okay no when I write and there’s a lot of fic, I tend to avoid Valinor during the First Age until after that paradise recovers from its equivalent of a Calamity unless I’m focusing on the two groups ignored as more boring than the dramatic fan favorites. But I like the mortals more)

[Cleretic]

I bet the venn diagram between 'people who didn't like Emet' and 'people who didn't like Elpis' has a LOT of overlap. And I'm not terribly surprised by it; even if there's a lot more going on, it still opens and structures itself around the base fanservice concept of 'hang out with this character we're pretty sure you like, in the place he waxed poetic about'; there's just very little appeal to Elpis that doesn't link very directly to that one character.

Pandaemonium I think stood a better chance because it was, literally and figuratively, 'the Ancient world Emet didn't tell us about'. It can tell its story on its own--and sure enough, the story it chose to tell serves to undermine the perfection we were first shown.

Isn't the crux of the issue here that G'raha not being there is part of a plan where they were willing to wipe out a timeline for the sake of saving someone in the past? That that was a gamble they apparently decided to take, despite survivors of the 8UC wanting to live on and focus on improving the lot left to them?

Sure, that's the crux of the story of the 8UC timeline. But when it comes to the Elpis trip that part either is resolved and not a problem (to the players) or is an acceptable risk (to the characters), so it doesn't matter for the comparison often raised; moralizing about the 8UC decision doesn't help us when talking about the WoL's Elpis trip and the notion of them staying to save the Ancient world, so my brain just went 'what happens if we don't get caught up in that part', because we always do.

And my conclusion is that the 8UC timeline is absolutely fine without G'raha (depending on what the Tower left behind I could even debatably see it being better), but the Source is screwed without the Warrior of Light returning.

[Brinne]

"But it's for us, they did it for us, they love us!" is also something the writers have figured out is the quickest way to get a character to appeal to the audience, no matter what the actions or behaviors were otherwise. If it was done for us, it must have been loving and heroic in some capacity. You mentioned G'raha, but there are obviously, um, several others. And I can easily include even some of the characters I really like as deploying this trick - Themis and Erich, just recently! - and not just the one who, ah, definitely can't be compared to Athena.

So the answer to your question:

G'raha et al. doing all of that [insert vague gesturing] just to save us and prevent chaos in a future timeline was suitably heroic and proportionate to the crisis at hand, but saving or preserving - even in part - an entire race wasn't even in the realms of consideration?

Yeah, basically. Screw you, got mine.

[Lurina]

"But it's for us, they did it for us, they love us!" is also something the writers have figured out is the quickest way to get a character to appeal to the audience, no matter what the actions or behaviors were otherwise. If it was done for us, it must have been loving and heroic in some capacity. You mentioned G'raha, but there are obviously, um, several others. And I can easily included even some of the characters I really like who are included to deploy this trick - Themis and Erich, just recently! - and not just the one who, ah, definitely can't be compared to Athena.

This is it, ultimately, yeah.

Whenever there's ambiguity around a character or the writers are cognizant of the fact they're writing a plot beat that might be controversial or contradict with their other messages, they gloss over it by having that character be motivated by love for the player character.

G'raha. Zenos. Venat. And yes, Emet-Selch, even if I like him.

Their cheat for having us accept characters and their roles in the story even even when we might feel visceral objection to them is to frame their actions as done, to one degree or another, out of devotion to us. The intent is that we're so moved personally that we'll forget that G'raha broke the rules of both how time travel is supposed to work in setting and the message about accepting the past that the story otherwise espouses, that Venat and Emet are both mass murderers in a way that renders some of their scenes bizarrely atonal and the worldbuilding surrounding the former especially odd, and that Zenos is a psychopath who condemned an entire country to die in agony because he was bored and does not really deserve a cool quasi-redemption arc.

Again, the world itself is ultimately there to soothe the ego of the player. Nothing else the characters do matters in comparison.

Furthermore, ultimately... this is fiction, and as much as I love a good emotional investment, there's only so much effort I want to put in to getting indignant on behalf of a fictional race that the writers don't want to defend because they've written themselves into a corner.

It's just a shame.