On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

G'raha probably shouldn't have jumped ship from a world that wasn't in so bad a shape after all, and they could have made good use of the tower for their own technology. But he's here now and we can't send him back so we might as well make the most of it.

Sorry for replying to this late, but I just now remembered that, hilariously, Tales from the Shadows outlines that this is exactly why the majority of the Ironworks and the rest of the world refused to cooperate with Cid's plan of essentially giving up on the present, and then potentially erasing it entirely, in 8UC - however, of course, in this context (because Cid wants to do it for the benefit of the Warrior of Light), their desire to focus on the present is framed in a vaguely negative-leaning sense, and Cid and his crew are framed as acting selflessly and for the sake of hope.

The Lalafell’s death prompted an emotional response from my feathered associate, who pressed his tear-stained cheek against the lifeless body. Some time later, once Master Cid and his colleagues had finally exhausted their supply of tears, they gathered for a lengthy discussion, their expressions growing ever more despondent as the talks continued. They eventually arrived at the conclusion that they lacked the means to restore their shattered world, with their only viable option being to entrust future generations with the knowledge that they had accumulated, in the hope that their successors may one day find a solution. This was met with some resistance, however, as many expressed disapproval at the idea of forsaking those in the present day in order to save a world they would never live to see.

They believed that understanding the nature of this catastrophe could reveal a means by which it might be averted entirely. Their aim was to change the past to create an alternate reality in which the Calamity never occurred─a feat rendered conceivable by their knowledge of the advanced technologies of fallen civilizations. However, many of those who would bear the burden of continued existence in a world ravaged by Black Rose failed to see this as a viable stratagem. Such responses were consistent with my projections, as it is generally the primary objective of all life-forms to secure their own survival in the here and now.

Many of Master Cid’s followers either refused to cooperate or expressed a desire to leave the Ironworks altogether. Certain former employees went as far as to appropriate equipment and supplies by force before heading into the wilderness to fend for themselves.

Although the vast majority opposed Master Cid’s radical proposition, a select few remained to lend their assistance. Research into the Eighth Umbral Calamity continued, aided by experts in the fields of magic and aetherial science. During this period, one loyal scholar noted that while preventing the disaster may not solve all of the problems that had afflicted the world of the past, the one dubbed the “Warrior of Light” would still be alive. The various members of the team each had their own personal connection with the deceased, and the notion of creating an alternative past in which their hero survived the Calamity met with unanimous approval.

And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

It is...beautiful.

Ah, FFXIV.

[Cleretic]

Sorry for replying to this late, but I just now remembered that, hilariously, Tales from the Shadows outlines that this is exactly why the majority of the Ironworks and the rest of the world refused to cooperate with Cid's plan of essentially giving up on the present, and then potentially erasing it entirely, in 8UC - however, of course, in this context (because Cid wants to do it for the benefit of the Warrior of Light), their desire to focus on the present is framed in a vaguely negative-leaning sense, and Cid and his crew are framed as acting selflessly and for the sake of hope.

Something that has occurred to me about the 8UC timeline, although probably not an intentional thing, is that the Ironworks gambled with the exact right piece, as G'raha and the Crystal Tower actually wouldn't really help in the task of dragging them towards the Eighth Astral Era. They just don't really provide anything useful for the task at hand, which I read as basically a Mad Max or Fallout situation; facing both mass death and crop failings causing a lawless wasteland. They couldn't have even made a Crystarium, because the main reason that worked was basically because Lakeland was ecologically fine, and just needed defending. (As a result I'd say that the places the 8UC timeline will see hope bloom from are actually more likely to be either Gridania and the remnants of their Botanist's' Guild, or Labyrinthos.)

This is in stark contrast with the notion of 'the WoL stays in Elpis to try to avert the Final Days', because the WoL is actually extremely important for the survival of the present day--not saying that because they're Superman, but more because they're relying on them coming back with useful information. Creating a new timeline in the Elpis time travel confirmably dooms the present-day not because the timeline then ceases to exist, but because the WoL never comes back with crucial information.

The characters certainly didn't intend this, and I have my doubts the writers did, either. But a G'raha-less Eighth Umbral Era isn't appreciably different from one with him there; an Endwalker Final Days without the Warrior of Light is doomed.

[Lunaxia]

Fair enough, and thanks for the insights. I'm not really going to counter anything, since most of it comes down to a matter of preference regarding themes, aesthetics, character archetypes, tropes and the like, and that's an intrinsically personal thing very rarely swayed by argument, but I always like hearing other points of view.

Something that has occurred to me about the 8UC timeline.

Isn't the crux of the issue here that G'raha not being there is part of a plan where they were willing to wipe out a timeline for the sake of saving someone in the past? That that was a gamble they apparently decided to take, despite survivors of the 8UC wanting to live on and focus on improving the lot left to them?

[Denishia]

Fair enough, and thanks for the insights. I'm not really going to counter anything, since most of it comes down to a matter of preference regarding themes, aesthetics, character archetypes, tropes and the like, and that's an intrinsically personally thing very rarely swayed by argument, but I always like hearing other points of view.

Thank you. I couldn’t cover everything but I tried to list as many of the additional elements that stacked on top of why Amaurot was not going to appeal to me and how the choices like music and having the interiors as Art Deco which, okay not the worst design option but the association with the 1920-30s was another red flag in symbolic suggestion, meant that I don’t think that they could have designed a zone of NPCs that would turn me off more if they tried.

And the Tolkien fan that I am -epecifically Silmarillion and years dealing with some inane fan wank over Númenor (especially the Gift of Men and the Ban and the Sinking) and multiple hot take arguments about Valinor and the Valar with their role as stewards of the planet and Fëanor’s war crimes apologia- carried baggage of its own. Though on the superficial level to Amaurot with those examples, my positions would be closer to yours, if you believe it (okay no when I write and there’s a lot of fic, I tend to avoid Valinor during the First Age until after that paradise recovers from its equivalent of a Calamity unless I’m focusing on the two groups ignored as more boring than the dramatic fan favorites. But I like the mortals more)

[Lunaxia]

Thank you. I couldn’t cover everything...

I really get that. You could say I was similarly put off the Empire in a big way owing to the clearly deliberate but uncomfortable parallels with various IRL, ah... world issues (which I'm not getting into because ye gods do I not need to open that can of worms here again), and seeing Garlemald up close and personal and where they blatantly took their inspiration for its design from was quite a "wow, they went there" moment for me. I still view it as fiction, ultimately, and the most such references do is give me a distinct "ick" factor I'll typically choose to keep my distance from, but I can understand people really taking umbrage at it and the characters involved. Ironically (or perhaps not, given where it ended up) it wound up one of my favourite parts of Endwalker; so I can be brought around if the writing's good enough and treats the subject matter maturely and objectively, but any prompts of sympathy fell very flat for me, lol.

[Cleretic]

I bet the venn diagram between 'people who didn't like Emet' and 'people who didn't like Elpis' has a LOT of overlap. And I'm not terribly surprised by it; even if there's a lot more going on, it still opens and structures itself around the base fanservice concept of 'hang out with this character we're pretty sure you like, in the place he waxed poetic about'; there's just very little appeal to Elpis that doesn't link very directly to that one character.

Pandaemonium I think stood a better chance because it was, literally and figuratively, 'the Ancient world Emet didn't tell us about'. It can tell its story on its own--and sure enough, the story it chose to tell serves to undermine the perfection we were first shown.

Isn't the crux of the issue here that G'raha not being there is part of a plan where they were willing to wipe out a timeline for the sake of saving someone in the past? That that was a gamble they apparently decided to take, despite survivors of the 8UC wanting to live on and focus on improving the lot left to them?

Sure, that's the crux of the story of the 8UC timeline. But when it comes to the Elpis trip that part either is resolved and not a problem (to the players) or is an acceptable risk (to the characters), so it doesn't matter for the comparison often raised; moralizing about the 8UC decision doesn't help us when talking about the WoL's Elpis trip and the notion of them staying to save the Ancient world, so my brain just went 'what happens if we don't get caught up in that part', because we always do.

And my conclusion is that the 8UC timeline is absolutely fine without G'raha (depending on what the Tower left behind I could even debatably see it being better), but the Source is screwed without the Warrior of Light returning.

[Lurina]

While there's layers to it, I don't generally think the reason I like the Elpis and the Unsundered World overlaps with why I like Emet at all. If anything, it correlates more with why I liked the rest of Shadowbringers.

I prefer the Unsundered World and the First (at least before we solved all their problems) over the Source because they're very unique, tonally distinct settings where mankind is in a fundamentally different position to the real world in a way that provokes interesting questions about society and human nature. While the First had similar vibes to something like Children of Men where it's all about seeing the different ways people respond to having no future, Elpis provoked a lot of similar feelings to when I'm reading good sci-fi. I was filled with curiosity about what this world would be like because, with the fundamentals so different, I genuinely couldn't guess. Beyond just Amaurot, how have other societies developed different value systems in the context of having these powers? What are families like in a world where humans are still recognizably human (rather than falling into elf tropes) but live for thousands and thousands of years? How did this strange status quo come about - was it always so utopian and aggressively community-oriented, or was this something they arrived at after a disaster? How the hell does their economy even work? I could go on.

In contrast, the Source is so dull to me. It's a Forgotten Realms-ass fantasy kitchen sink with themes and motifs you can find anywhere, spread out without any underlying direction. I like some of the characters, but I don't give a damn about any of these factions and places - even the interesting ones like Gridania have had all their edges filed off since 1.0. When I hear people talk about how they hope the next several expansions get away from all this cross-dimensional stuff to focus on the Source, it makes me feel like I'm going insane. I don't wanna be here! It's so boring! Ahhhhh!!!!!!!!

edit: Whoops, sorry for sniping your high-effort post, Teraq.

[Teraq]

edit: Whoops, sorry for sniping your high-effort post, Teraq.

Haha don't worry. Old message boards and its pages happen. (Imagine seeing "Teraq is typing…" for one hour straight.)

I fully agree with your post. I've always found the setting of the Source… middling out-of-the-mill fantasy at best. It isn't helped by the fact that the races and tribes' lore feels like it isn't explored much, so a lot of the time the various people of the Source feel like they're just… regular people in a fantasy setting with schizophrenic tech, but some of them happen to have animal ears, fur or scales or an unusual skin tone. I'm thankful that we got two depictions of traditional Seeker of the Sun tribes at all, and the various tribes were a highlight of the Azim Steppes (not enough of them though… *clenches fist*), but otherwise… where are the Duskwight caves? The volcano dwelling Hellsguards? Male Viera as the unseen protectors of the jungle? Hrothgar's… everything? (hard to depict their society when you don't even have a model for women, I guess…)

And yeah, the Ancients fascinate me because they're human in every way, but with fundamental differences that change a lot. For this reason, I loved the tidbit in Pandaemonium tier 2 where Themis explains that typically people don't feel so intensely about their parents; it stands to reason that humans that live nearly forever compared to us, physiologically cannot die of hunger as opposed to animals (as explained by Euanthe) and possess magic that makes their society post-scarcity by default would have different social dynamics from ours. Once they grew into adults, they most likely didn't have to be caretakers for their parents as they grew into old age. They didn't have to depend on them for money, food or shelter. This would fundamentally change a lot of the interpersonal dynamic.

I am of the same opinion regarding how their society became so collective-oriented, stressing the use of their magic to benefit the community and The Planet™ rather than fostering individuality and material possessions. My headcanon on that is that their history was full of dark and darker things, because they are very well aware that everyone has dark impulses within themselves – it's literally the first thing you are told when arriving in Amaurot in 5.0. Combined with their myriad laws, regulated processes and comically tedious administrative paperwork (paging Fourth Seat Pashtarot to investigate Elpis… paging Fourth Seat…), thinking notably of the societal taboo around going Greek God Mode as "unsightly", or their insistence on doing certain things the mundane way rather than using their magic nilly-willy, it's very easy to imagine disasters HAVE happened and they are doing their best to prevent that from happening again. Honestly, I'm sure that even in the era we see them, their day-to-day lives could get… interesting.

As for their economy, I think the only thing we know for sure is that fish description that says Ancients wouldn't care about gold as a material itself, which doesn't mean they didn't have a currency that isn't that metal in particular… perhaps a currency marked with a particular aetherial signature that makes it incredibly hard to replicate? Or perhaps a trade economy of naturally grown goods. I wish we knew more.