On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Yuella]

So apparently I'm one of the few who found the whole patch a massive disservice to his character overall, then.

I genuinely hated it, I'm sorry to say. It's bad enough Emet-Selch's character was rewritten and toned down in order to give the writers' chosen narrative surrounding the events of the story a Villainous Seal of Approval, but apparently Elidibus and Lahabrea couldn't be left alone either?

I actually liked the way his arc ended in 5.3/ Endwalker. I like that he had little regard for our optional apology, that they all maintained their belief in their actions and chosen course to bring back those they loved. I like that they were fundamentally scarred, ultimately very different people from the ones we knew in our previous life owing not just to the effects of a lifetime of misery and isolation, but because they were still irrevocably tied to the past in away that we were not and could not hope to change. What made everything about their story so moving was the acknowledgement of all of that, and that we were not who we once were either, and never could be, and that the chasm between us, while tragic, could never hope to be crossed. It was good, emotional, powerful storytelling.

So I do not understand the incessant need the writers have to double back on what they previously established and consistently unmake everything that made 5.0 so great in order to loop everything neatly into a needless little bow for the sake of some cheap warm fuzzies at the end of the storyline. It's nonsensical how the characters that made a choice twelve thousand years ago to do everything they could to save the world so dear to them would suddenly be so accepting and at peace with what was done to them and how things ultimately turned out, and be borderline derogatory towards themselves for not playing ball and taking the sundering lying down. Elidibus did not need to view his actions in the scope of "saving mankind" to make them justifiable, because the whole point was that from the Ascian POV, they already were. It's just more garbage sundering apologism that drags down the entire experience.

Both Lahabrea and Emet-Selch never apologized for trying to bring back the unsundered world. Lahabrea admitted it was hypocritical for the Ascians to wipe out lives to bring back theirs but he said he'd do it without a second thought because it's his duty.

[Lunaxia]

Both Lahabrea and Emet-Selch never apologized for trying to bring back the unsundered world. Lahabrea admitted it was hypocritical for the Ascians to wipe out lives to bring back theirs but he said he'd do it without a second thought because it's his duty.

They didn't apologise, no, but the characters' general handwaving of everything they endured owing to Hydaelyn's decision, up to and including the writers subtly implying Lahabrea jumped off a cliff harder than he might otherwise have owing to Athena/ the auracite's influence than anything else, and having Emet-Selch, a man previously destroyed by what the years since did to him suddenly turn around and go "oh lol Hydaelyn, you got me good! I guess your way worked best, huh!" just felt like an indirect way of affirming the protagonists' actions, and it is weird to me given what it put them through and what it cost them. Their whole background and how the events from the Final Days through to the present day shaped their characters felt thoroughly disregarded, and a token throwaway bit they toss in at the end of a long string of really bizarre writing didn't really mitigate any of that on my end. Like, their just... being very okay with the fact their world did not survive in the Aitiascope coupled with the WoL conveniently ducking any questions as to how that happened so we could have our Ancient allies on our side was just an expected suspension of belief pushed too far for me, especially when they do bother to go to such lengths to display their disgust at their future actions.

(Also, did past-Lahabrea actually know about the future?)

[Brinne]

I think the intention was just for past-Lahabrea to be very observant and, bluntly, picked up via that observation, intuition, and our Vibes that we were fundamentally operating at cross-purposes, even if he didn't know the specifics or the details. In that framework, I appreciate that he more or less stood his ground and stated that he was unwavering in his own purpose.

The convolutions the writing went through to Not Talk About The Sundering were just hilariously transparent to me. I'm not inclined to point the finger at the Pandaemonium writer himself, since he's probably working under a higher directive as far as Don't Talk About It (oh man, was the presentation of Athena and her mindset interesting, though, in that regard), so when I talk about how I loved the "characterization," it's more learning what kind of personalities this group of people had and their interpersonal dynamics, not the ridiculousness of them being conveniently manifested and shoehorned around so we never have to discuss the incredibly legitimate and valid reasons they have to hate us and be bitter about their fates. I loved seeing Lahabrea's grumpy, blunt forms of gruff kindness, such as when he shot Claudien down when Claudien attempted to talk to him from an Erichtonios place, and Themis is beyond charming; I love the layers to his personality, so that he went beyond just "cute sad kid" and carries some serious swagger and weight to him as one of the leaders of the world, while maintaining a bit of childish mischievous and playfulness at the same time as being an obviously very compassionate, thoughtful, and loving person.

Erich's arc with his mother and his agency was also just great, and while the way the wider plot of EW as a whole was handled was beyond weaselly, I also admired the guts of carrying that bitter, ugly, raw edge to his self-contained emotional arc to the very end. I think the writing underscored enough that Athena was Athena, even with the space rock - the space rock fundamentally just empowered Athena into a world-ending boss threat we could punch. But the fundamental horror, as this was always the story, at its core, of a damaged family - that she just has absolutely no love in her heart and only ruthlessness for her ambitions was completely her, on her own - stood well enough that the space rock factor didn't bother me, and I went into this petrified that they would compromise or ruin Athena's glorious evil. She's still my wife.

(Also, I think it's a little funny that even the Absolute Worst and Most Evil Ancient wouldn't have become a serious threat on a wide scale if not for the intervention of an Alien Space Rock, but you know, the society and its people are just fundamentally rotten and had to be put down, everything was for the best, etc, etc. Endwalker!)

There are several points where it does come across that Themis (especially in the end scene) and Lahabrea are clearly making a Deliberate Choice to not delve into the ugliness in how they and the WoL will be/have been are cross purposes, for the sake of papering things over out of kindness to the WoL and to a degree for Themis, attempting to soothe himself after being tortured for milennia and losing everything. I'm a bit of a sucker for that kind of thing, but I also acknowledge, yes, it's also totally writer cowardice to spare the player, the writers themselves, and make the Warrior of Light universally beloved and praised by everyone, as is always the primary agenda.

In a vacuum for the characters themselves, it made me love Lahabrea and Elidibus more, because they are truly good, kind people, while hating that they ever even had to do something like that - and meanwhile didn't help much with my growing disgust at the Warrior of Light at happily accepting the offered kindness at the expense of their own feelings and agency and skipping away untroubled, leaving them to their horrible fates.

[Iscah]

...the Warrior of Light at happily accepting the offered kindness at the expense of their own feelings and agency and skipping away untroubled, leaving them to their horrible fates.

The one thing we have learned, as observers to the story, is that there is no averting that fate. They have been through it, and the fact that we are here in the modern day of the story proves that they have already been through it.

It's even touched on here as a "well, it happened, we're here and now we need to pick up the pieces and save this world now" – and on our final visit to the past, are under direct instructions from Lahabrea to not tell his past self anything.

From the WoL's perspective, if they chose to interfere, they would not prevent that suffering from happening, but would create a second world that is going to have its own new array of suffering, while at the same time cutting themselves off from (and for all they know, potentially destroying) their original world and all their friends. And they still would have not actually saved the Ascians from what they went through.

It was – barely – acceptable to do that to the 8UE timeline when they genuinely thought the world was going to be destroyed and everyone would be wiped out either way. But doing that to a living world wouldn't be heroic at all.

Plus, we're simply locked into the game as well as a narrative. We can't abandon this game setting for a new timeline.

[Kozh]

The one thing we have learned, as observers to the story, is that there is no averting that fate. They have been through it, and the fact that we are here in the modern day of the story proves that they have already been through it.

It's even touched on here as a "well, it happened, we're here and now we need to pick up the pieces and save this world now" – and on our final visit to the past, are under direct instructions from Lahabrea to not tell his past self anything.

From the WoL's perspective, if they chose to interfere, they would not prevent that suffering from happening, but would create a second world that is going to have its own new array of suffering, while at the same time cutting themselves off from (and for all they know, potentially destroying) their original world and all their friends. And they still would have not actually saved the Ascians from what they went through.

It was – barely – acceptable to do that to the 8UE timeline when they genuinely thought the world was going to be destroyed and everyone would be wiped out either way. But doing that to a living world wouldn't be heroic at all.

Plus, we're simply locked into the game as well as a narrative. We can't abandon this game setting for a new timeline.

Unfortunately for you, what the Ironworks of 8UC did is seen as heroic and the right thing to do. Both by the game and the players. So if that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what else.

And frankly, I don't really buy they thinking "oh no mankind is finished", when we don't know if Black Rose reach lands outside of Eorzea. But regardless, it's still a living world where people born, live, and die. The Ironworks should've forge ahead instead of seeking salvation on a different timeline they created.

[Lord_Umbra]

Unfortunately for you, what the Ironworks of 8UC did is seen as heroic and the right thing to do. Both by the game and the players. So if that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what else.

And frankly, I don't really buy they thinking "oh no mankind is finished", when we don't know if Black Rose reach lands outside of Eorzea. But regardless, it's still a living world where people born, live, and die. The Ironworks should've forge ahead instead of seeking salvation on a different timeline they created.

I mean they still have to forge ahead the short story they put out reveals that world didn't vanish so that timeline still exist, nothing we did saved that timeline nor erased it which possibly means we weren't the WoL from that time line & Graha ended up travelling to the wrong timeline since our timeline has Zenos who stops Black Rose which means Zenos probably stayed dead in Black Rose time line.

[Kozh]

I mean they still have to forge ahead the short story they put out reveals that world didn't vanish so that timeline still exist, nothing we did saved that timeline nor erased it which possibly means we weren't the WoL from that time line & Graha ended up travelling to the wrong timeline since our timeline has Zenos who stops Black Rose which means Zenos probably stayed dead in Black Rose time line.

Well they're forced to forge ahead when all is said and done and turns out they weren't erased. My point is, if they decided to forge ahead since the start, they won't be looking at means to time travel and "let history be unwritten".

[MikkoAkure]

Unfortunately for you, what the Ironworks of 8UC did is seen as heroic and the right thing to do. Both by the game and the players. So if that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what else.

And frankly, I don't really buy they thinking "oh no mankind is finished", when we don't know if Black Rose reach lands outside of Eorzea. But regardless, it's still a living world where people born, live, and die. The Ironworks should've forge ahead instead of seeking salvation on a different timeline they created.

We do know that Black Rose reached outside Eorzea because the cutscene where the 8UC is brought up by Urianger, he mentions that Black Rose spread throughout the Empire too and then it killed the soil itself. He also says the subsequent violence spread to "every corner of the world" and nations ceased to exist in "an age of endless war" so it was truly a worldwide calamity.

The people of the Ironworks decided that their world was doomed, and it very well could be in the long run since the Ascians are free to run amok and Hydaelyn has less power in that timeline. It's in that backdrop that they decided to throw a light to the past to make a new timeline. In the original timeline, the Ascians will probably eventually complete the Rejoining and Emet-Selch, Hythlodeus, and Elidibus would be reunited and free to hold hands and skip into the sunset if that's what you're looking for.

[Lunaxia]

I'll admit, I did enjoy Erich's final moments with his mother. That was a nice finish to his saga, even if his sudden reconciliation with his father having a rod re-inserted somewhere personal back in the past was a little less so. When it comes to Lahabrea, I like him best when he's at his most obnoxious (I love the unapologetically no-nonsense, abrasive types, particularly in a cast as mild-mannered as we often seem to find ourselves) and sort of branching off of that, his most uncomfortable, and in that respect I feel kind of cheated by the lack of any real confrontation between him and Athena especially (though it being more of Erich's thing wasn't the worst trade-off, I suppose.) I'm also sad we never got to see him at his most capable a la a full on Hades moment, given the repeated call-outs across the story for a while now at how powerful he was supposed to actually be, so his writing this patch took a bit of a downturn for me overall.

Themis is... complicated. I do like him, but unlike Emet-Selch I find the link between present-day him and past him to be too tenuous to fully connect the two. I know what you mean in terms of giving him a little more presence as a leader making sense, but... I personally enjoyed his previous characterisation as being more earnest, softly-spoken and in awe of what was around him. I felt he ended up a bit too "Alphinaud'd" for my liking, and we already have enough precocious youngers in the story, as charming as he is. Perhaps seeing him amongst the ranks of Azem and Emet might have brought that forward a little more? Who knows. My biggest problem, though, was the immediate dismissal of where his character actually ended up in 5.3/ 6.0 and choosing to have his final farewell as his authentic "self" being more or less a copy of who he is in the Panda storyline. It goes back to my original post and wound up souring me on his appearance this tier, unfortunately. I just couldn't buy into it.

(Also, I think it's a little funny that even the Absolute Worst and Most Evil Ancient wouldn't have become a serious threat on a wide scale if not for the intervention of an Alien Space Rock, but you know, the society and its people are just fundamentally rotten and had to be put down, everything was for the best, etc, etc. Endwalker!)

I was always interested in the concept of an "evil" Ancient and what danger their powers might have posed in the hands of such a person, but I guess the answer is: not a lot?

It's kind of weird, isn't it, how they go out of their way to justify Venat's actions with these laboured, long-winded metaphors on perfection-induced existential apathy and societal stagnation when a much more solid basis for her argument was right there.

[Brinne]

I understand what you mean by Themis - I also appreciated he was allowed to go out on a mostly bitter note (while still upholding his duty to save the world) in 6.0. I'm sentimental and sappy enough, though, that after getting to know and fall in love with this exceedingly good, brave, wonderful kid, the thought of him dying alone in bitterness and pain now just kills me, so that his papering things over was also partially for his own sake - so he can go out telling himself that He Did Good, He Saved The World After All, even if it's affected and forced and the equivalent of an emotional bandage over a gaping wound - made me swallow it a little easier. As part of the larger whole, though, I totally feel the annoyance that everyone now just has to Approvingly Accept the state of the world's salvation being built on the mass corpses of undeserving people. Themis in 6.0 was a bit of the last holdout.

I still wouldn't have appreciated an argument that the Ancients were just too dangerous and powerful to be allowed to live - their powers are inborn, after all, and the Sundered are responsible for their fair share of Apocalyptic Innovations themselves - but yeah, it at least would have been much more straightforward than the vague backwards convoluted gymnastics that EW ultimately went with. I laughed a little in a sort of hysterical broken way, at Erich's righteous counter to Athena's argument - that her plans to ascend to godhood in order to erase her people, those gross and flawed Ancients, and remake them into something better was for the greater good - were still unacceptable to do at the expense of the currently living. Good lord.

EDIT: Ah, I also wanted to add, re: Themis, that I think his final final scene, after he's done talking to the Warrior of Light, and notes/summarizes what just happened: "history is written by the winners," also helped me with it a lot, because it still has that trace of acknowledgment that this entire situation is utterly awful and unfair. I don't know what the end of that bit with the light implies, but I do know that if that's the rule we're operating under in terms of this Resigned Acceptance, then what I want to do is to take Themis's hand and stand at his side to help smash that rule to pieces, but I'm not going to hold my breath (or hold onto anything in particular at all, lol) in terms of hope or faith in this writing team along those lines.