On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

Yeah, I think at the very least it's clear that Yoshi-P and the writing's intent was to make Hythlo one of the primary figures demonstrating the supposed Ancient apathy, as you said. He's the closest thing in that group we have to meeting a "normal Ancient" who can speak for and represent their culture and viewpoints at large, but even under that pretext, Hythlo as the central example as to why everyone in his race needs to die falls apart very quickly for both the reasons you stated and because Hythlo is also paradoxically obviously designed to be a sympathetic and lovable figure. Basically all the individual Ancients we get to know meaningfully are, which is why Venat's montage becomes very transparent to me in terms of subbing in manipulative and generic strawmen in place of literally any actualized, living, breathing Ancient character we've encountered.

I often think that one of the critical mistakes the creative team made going into Endwalker was thinking that they could throw the Ancients as a whole under the bus so long as they properly uplifted the fan-favorite individual characters that happened to be Ancients, with Emet-Selch being the most obvious and perhaps gratuitous case. Endwalker obviously, at the same time it's insisting the Ancients were just emotionally hopeless and had to be put down, is absurdly (and I'm saying that as an Emet-Selch lover you have debated with on those grounds, Lunaxia!) propped up as an Incredibly Good Person. But that doesn't work. Speaking for myself, I truly fell in love with the Ancients and Amaurot themselves, and instantly feel much more outraged at attempts to malign them than any towards Emet-Selch individually. I love his character dearly, but he has certainly pulled enough utterly horrible things that I basically shrug and go "totally valid" at people who dislike them and him, because anyone certainly has absolute right to. I'd go as far as to say that what ultimately sold me on Emet-Selch as a character was his emotional context in relation to the Ancients as the primary source of pathos, not the other way around. So for me, Endwalker was doomed from the start, in a way, because they were trying to thread the needle upside down and backwards at the same time.

You could arguably even say they're probably still making that mistake, given Yoshi-P's aside that he figures that the attempt to make the Ancients "scary" rather than "good people" to most of the audience ultimately failing could be ascribed to the individual charisma of Emet, Hythlo, and Venat. No, Yoshida. I - and most of the others I know - genuinely, honestly, simply love the Ancients, and the arguments Endwalker tries to make to paint them as alien and irredeemable mostly come across as ridiculous and insulting at best.

Which ties back to what you said about Hythlo at least beginning to learn that emotional lesson - I think part of what makes Hythlo compelling to me is that while he himself holds that general indifference and disinterest, his love for his two friends is intense, true, and absolute (if at times a bit unconventional, as reflected in the remark you referenced, lmao. oh hythlo) - and I think that part of what fuels that genuine, absolute love is admiration not just of their power, but of their goodness. Hythlo himself is not particularly compassionate, but he truly loves and admires Emet-Selch's compassion, and we can see him therefore enjoying himself greatly in pushing Emet-Selch past his tsundere barriers to act upon his kinder impulses. In some of the cracks, there, I think is the capacity for him to learn that you described, and that he shows potential signs of moving in that direction by the end of Ktisis. (And honestly, it's fine if Hythlo is never the most empathetic or kind person in the world. It takes all types, and I love seeing all the different kinds of very human people who number among the Ancient population. Part of what charmed me immediately, even back in phantom Amaurot, was exactly that.)

But I also want to note that the Ancients always obviously showed that capacity, and the willingness, to learn and grow even if you could make an argument (that I'm sympathetic to and would even agree with) that they naturally had room for improvement in their society. Doing the side-quests in Elpis where the majority of the Ancients are practically eager to listen to the feedback of a familiar, get excited about the perspectives they offer, and start incorporating them into how they go about things was enough to show me the inanity of the argument Endwalker tries to convince of us regarding Hydaelyn's decision as necessary and righteous, and every piece of canon material released since then has done nothing to assuage that feeling. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I guess that's risking treading a little close to that argument, but really, I genuinely think Hythlo is a great character even with Elpis, and a lot of his nuance goes a bit underappreciated because it's a bit more subtle and less in-your-face than others. There's a lot more going on with him than simply being "the nice one," as I think a lot tend to write him off a bit as.

...and on an unrelated note to That Argument, have I mentioned I love Athena? Man, she is great. Can't get enough of her.

... <_<

[Lunaxia]

Yeah, I think at the very least it's clear that...

I didn't actually know Yoshi had said that - if I'm being blatantly honest I don't pay a whole lot of attention to his commentary on the story compared to the likes of Ishikawa and Koji, who I feel are much more invested and in tune with what's being put out and how it resonates with the community. But if it is true, and what he says is a general sentiment shared by the team, that's... certainly something. I suppose it does help add up for me why they are so happy to nonchalantly cast the Ancients to one side while at the same time throwing bland NPCs in my face I'm supposed to care about when they might as well be pieces of cardboard for the emotional investment I have in them, even as I'm perplexed that's the conclusion I should apparently be arriving at. I was similarly quickly charmed by Amaurot and the NPCs there, and even as far as zone quests go (which I admit I often enjoy anyway - I find them charming and full of colour) I really, really loved Amaurot's world-building. I mean, I've never been so entertained by a discussion on foreign policy in my life as watching the scene at the Hall of the Rhetoric and I was a bit in awe how they managed to have such a simple moment offer such a succinct but thorough snapshot of the Ancients' mindsets. Elpis was a joyful continuation, and I was giddily skipping everywhere trying to soak up all the lore I could. I found myself really caring about these people.

...and you know, on reflection, I don't think that is an error or a total matter of taste on the fans' part, because surely the intention was, or should have been, to sell me on why this world meant so much to the villain in ShB, at least? You did your job! Would my indifference to their plight not be a failure of the writing? Were they counting on the brevity of their stay in their story to lose to my time spent in Hydaelyn? If so, I guess that failed rather spectacularly. As you say, Emet-Selch was lifted and made sympathetic by his love for these people in the first place; they were not made interesting by a connection to him, and it's a sign of what little they understood about ShB's success to see the assumptions they made and where they took things in EW.

As far as Hyth is concerned, I do think his character suffers from Emet-Selch being the sun around which other characters tend to orbit in his cutscenes. There are these curious little asides with him, to be sure, but the only meaningful interaction we have with him outside of reading between the lines of extraneous dialogue overlooks him entirely in favour of throwing a spotlight on his friends, so his nuance can sneak under the radar, and, well... I've said as much before, but I am highly critical of the main scenario writers given past experiences, and I'm more inclined to smell a rat in terms of the intentions for a character than use it as an opportunity to appreciate possible hidden depths. That's very much a me problem, as they say, though, and I appreciate reading what others may have seen that I did not.

Yeah, in these scenarios I'm not so much attempting to justify why the Ancients deserved survival - they were fundamentally deserving of that in my eyes, no matter how strict the interpretation of them you might run with - but I like to point out where the argument falls in on itself within the confines of the story itself, considering the opposing argument makes liberal use of "but look what the story intended!" as if it's iron-clad gospel and not based on a foundation that frequently and shamelessly contradicts itself (as evidenced by your exchange with Iscah, to which I hmm very meaningfully over and struggle not to comment on.)

I feel like I can sense your twitchy fingers over - ahem, wanting to express your love for Athena, and to that end I nod my head towards That Thread if you ever felt compelled to do so. I'd definitely like to read it.

*shrug* Yoshida's comments about the Ancients rang true enough to me.

I mean, I could not disagree you with more on practically any of those points, but more power to you for that potent collection of hot takes, which you are more than entitled to. I'm curious what turns you off the Ancients so much, though.

[Denishia]

I'm curious what turns you off the Ancients so much, though.

*shrug* Subjective taste.

Starts when Emet, a character that was obnoxious instead of funny or charismatic, directly responsible for the horrendous Allag and Garleans Empires & Vauthry's Eulmore, spews dehumanizing lines reminiscent of irl bigotry that Sundered aren't human because lack of magical power. Obvious how that could be an insurmountable hurdle. Nothing else about Emet hit for me except voice fit character and writing wasn't flat. Galling and false when the people of the First weren't lesser in any way to the Source's inhabitants. Ryne her own person, theme repeated with Gaia. Azem-related tropes dislike goes here if fit.

Emet called his world a paradise; of course it wouldn't be. Allag and Eulmore thematic mirrors heralded what it would really be. Plus as long-time fantasy fan, the "Highly Advanced Precursor Civilization" can be mostly misses for me.

Load into the Tempest: zone is dark, ugly and BGM - Not a fan of piano jazz in general, but that tune and variations except for "To the Edge" are the only tracks in the game I immediately hated.

Sighed because I knew Atlantis was down here. My Tolkien friends know I have little interest in Fall of Atlantis retreads.

We get to Amaurot itself. No fan of densely urban skyscraper city-scapes - prettiest part of this place was trees. Everything obnoxiously oversized when I'm playing a Roe for a reason. Sent to wait at fantasy DMV. Ascian robes a design choice I found lame but slightly better than the Kingdom Hearts version - but now every NPC is in a less visually interesting robe with masks (Woodwailers ew).

And the Amaurotines themselves even in ShB? Not convincing me of the paradise claims - feels like every other imperfect city the WoL arrives to and starts fixing. A taste of all the reasons to dislike the Sharlayans. An emphasis on the appearance of a monolithic culture where lives only had one defined purpose that needed to be contributed in the prescribed way. Echoes of theocratic Ishgard and especially Garlemald to which Nanamo refuted back in 2.0. Not even ghost!Hytholeaus was charming me to be interested in the people of this city the way that virtually all other NPCs and their culture and politics in various XIV locations would. The most interesting tidbit was the suggestion of other cities and places that weren't Amaurot - did they agree with Amaurot's assessment as the knowledge/power hub and use the same creation magics the same way? The paradise it was describing wasn't one that sounded like I would be happy in or philosophically agreed w/ and I was predicting someone like Hermes and already feeling sorry for them.

Come 7.0 Elpis gave even uglier robes, overdosed on Greek names. Thankfully zone is unlike Amaurot except for spirals on buildings and has new theme. Re-enforced the Sharlayan Forum/Eulmore but worse vibes. Already hating that Emet was the MSQ narrator, now more of him.

[Turnintino]

I'm curious what turns you off the Ancients so much, though.

As someone who was similarly uncharmed by the Ancients, I'll say that I... just found them aggravatingly boring lol. I had broader frustrations with the Elpis scenario, mostly due to a personal hatred for time travel in stories clearly not conceived for it (and only slightly more patience for stories that were, tbh), and my own Emet-fatigue (as an individual, not so much because he was an Ancient). So all of those things maybe colored my first impression unfairly, since all of it made me a lot less receptive to the basic premise the writers were trying to sell me on. But, as I said, I wasn't terribly interested in the story of the Ancients or their plight, to begin with.

If I'd ever been intrigued, it was during ShB, when they were still sort of nebulous and alien, but even then, I wasn't itching for more, and nor was I eagerly receiving what had been given to me at that point. Like my impression of Hythlodaeus and his treatment from one expansion to the next, as we'd discussed in that other thread, I don't think there's a world where an attempt at fleshing them out wouldn't have disappointed me -- even when my bar for the Ancients, in general, was lower than it was for Hythlodaeus specifically.

All that said, precisely because of my misgivings with the Elpis narrative and my general disinterest in the Ancients themselves, I haven't touched the zone any more than the MSQ and Pandaemonium required of me. Maybe a more thorough exploration would change my mind. But I won't pretend that I'm inclined to do so any time soon. And there are things about it, like the origins of the creatures we've grown to know so well, that just makes the entire world of FFXIV feel so much smaller to me, in a way that only sours me on it all the more. The zone's pretty, though!

[Denishia]

And there are things about it, like the origins of the creatures we've grown to know so well, that just makes the entire world of FFXIV feel so much smaller to me, in a way that only sours me on it all the more. The zone's pretty, though!

That element to Elpis also gave the same feeling of shrinking the world-building of XIV into one that lost a lot of charm and depth - but because it felt so blatant that it looped itself around into an absurdity where at best these Elpis researchers are a fun-house mirror parody of the Dev team, so much so that it makes me wonder if certain researchers were created as stand-ins for different asset designers. Come to work, design a new monster mob for our game's over-world and only focus on that, and once you've created content that pleases your department head, eventually you'll be transferred or quit and thus done with this world. It's an MMO so we always need more shark bosses. The players won't know your face; you have the anonymity of being part of a list of names in the credits, but they'll recognize the mob. Where did this item or animal come from? We have to give a lore justification and now it's neat and tidy for every one. It's annoying but in a way that's more silly than sour.