Relic News - 6.45

[ForteNightshade]

You think "take a break" is saying the game can't get better? I think playing the game while it isn't fun for you is saying the game can't get better. Submit feedback or requests all you want. Maybe they'll see some of it and use it. But at the end of the day the loudest voice consumers have is their wallet. When Eureka and Bozja came out, I submitted negative feedback about them and stopped playing. I didn't renew my sub till there was something I wanted to do. I'm not going to pay money to play content I don't like. In what way is that a defense of the company or assuming the game can't get better?

Fun fact, you can't submit feedback or even most on this forum without a subscription. Therefore, you can't actually take a break and criticise the game.

What your line of reasoning fails to acknowledge is people posting actively want the game to improve. They want to play it yet have nothing to do because content has no longevity whatsoever. Case in point, when 6.3 dropped, I finished every major piece of content over the weekend. I then did take a break... and came back after well over a month to basically nothing. Deep Dungeon is fun and all but it can only carry a patch for so long. Ultimate was the only thing I didn't finish but that's a whole different type of content and not really relevant to the criticisms being levied at Endwalker. People shouldn't have to take 3-4 month long breaks because patch content is so dry it can hardly last a week much less twenty.

I'd rather a manderville quest then deal with all the busy work in that screen shot.

And you'd have still gotten that Manderville quest because there's no reason its even tied to the relic to begin with. They could have easily made up an excuse for Godbert to talk to you in Radz-at-Han without requiring all of Hildibrand to be completed. It's entirely tacked on purely to give the illustration of lengthily content when, in reality, the supposed "quest centric relic" is one five minute quest before you're off on your way to grind the same chore tomes you were already grinding to begin with. So aveyond actually oversold the relic "content" Endwalker offers with that image.

[Xirean]

Fun fact, you can't submit feedback or even most on this forum without a subscription. Therefore, you can't actually take a break and criticise the game.

What your line of reasoning fails to acknowledge is people posting actively want the game to improve. They want to play it yet have nothing to do because content has no longevity whatsoever.

If you're paying your sub just to complain on the forums then fun fact, you're paying for a less useful twitter. I can't think of a bigger waste of money then keeping a sub going just to use the forum. Again I'll say, submit feedback all you like, but at the end of the day the only real vote you have as a consumer is your wallet. I'm sorry if that's not a useful answer for you.

And you'd have still gotten that Manderville quest because there's no reason its even tied to the relic to begin with. They could have easily made up an excuse for Godbert to talk to you in Radz-at-Han without requiring all of Hildibrand to be completed. It's entirely tacked on purely to give the illustration of lengthily content when, in reality, the supposed "quest centric relic" is one five minute quest before you're off on your way to grind the same chore tomes you were already grinding to begin with. So aveyond actually oversold the relic "content" Endwalker offers with that image.

True, we could have gotten it without it being tied to the relic. And yet I like this relic more because it's tied to it.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Fun fact, you can't submit feedback or even most on this forum without a subscription. Therefore, you can't actually take a break and criticise the game.

What your line of reasoning fails to acknowledge is people posting actively want the game to improve. They want to play it yet have nothing to do because content has no longevity whatsoever. Case in point, when 6.3 dropped, I finished every major piece of content over the weekend. I then did take a break... and came back after well over a month to basically nothing. Deep Dungeon is fun and all but it can only carry a patch for so long. Ultimate was the only thing I didn't finish but that's a whole different type of content and not really relevant to the criticisms being levied at Endwalker. People shouldn't have to take 3-4 month long breaks because patch content is so dry it can hardly last a week much less twenty.

How stupid, you realize the devs also look in the general feedback of other media outlets besides the forums right? They're not going to just look at what people shout here because you'd be focusing on a single echo chamber. This is an MMO with lots of avenues for expression so you saying that "I have to pay for a sub in order to submit feedback" is just...ridiculous. You can provide feedback anywhere and its very much also effective to do so in a place that garner's a lot of traction if you find the right post/thread or whatever.

And somebody already said it but the most effective form of feedback for game companies is to actually vote with your wallet and stop playing this game if it upsets you so much that its not worth your time anymore. If so many people actually smarten up and do this more often we'd have better games and better practices but people who genuinely complain, complain and complain but still give these companies their money isnt helping anyone but the company.

[ForteNightshade]

If you're paying your sub just to complain on the forums then fun fact, you're paying for a less useful twitter. I can't think of a bigger waste of money then keeping a sub going just to use the forum. Again I'll say, submit feedback all you like, but at the end of the day the only real vote you have as a consumer is your wallet. I'm sorry if that's not a useful answer for you.

Who said I was? Nowhere in my response did I even insinuate my sole motivation for remaining subscribed was simply to complain on the OF. In fact, this assumption gets thrown away a bit too liberally as a rebuttal. People can still enjoy aspects of the game while being critical. Speaking for myself now, I still enjoy raiding enough to have two separate characters; three if you include my split clear character. Ironically, it's everyone's favourite website that gives Savage longevity but that's where I find my fun. Which isn't to say I don't enjoy other content like crafting, mount farming and whatnot. I dabbled or actively play just about every piece of content. The problem is there still isn't nearly enough with any longevity. Once again, a third party website gives raiding more relevance than SE does. Now if Criterion had better rewards, you could argue that helps. Alas, it doesn't.

True, we could have gotten it without it being tied to the relic. And yet I like this relic more because it's tied to it.

Good for you? A good many don't. Hence the backlash. The difference is in the hypothetical scenario where you still get Hildibrand but the relic has actual depth to its progression both subs of players get something to do instead of just you.

How stupid, you realize the devs also look in the general feedback of other media outlets besides the forums right? They're not going to just look at what people shout here because you'd be focusing on a single echo chamber. This is an MMO with lots of avenues for expression so you saying that "I have to pay for a sub in order to submit feedback" is just...ridiculous. You can provide feedback anywhere and its very much also effective to do so in a place that garner's a lot of traction if you find the right post/thread or whatever.

While yes, they look at other outlets for feedback and opinions, the forums is their primary go to. Yoshida outright says as much; asking players to comment on the OF whenever they have concerns or feedback. That doesn't mean they're combing through each and every post nor did I assert as much anywhere in my response. They certainly aren't scouring through reddit or fan made websites. Outside of these forums, they'll occasionally listen to influencers who often share similar opinions to what's being echoed here. How do we know this? Look at nearly any major source of contention amongst the playerbase and when it was either acknowledged or solved.

Healer complaints were ablaze for years yet only when a near 300 liked thread was made on the OF did it get acknowledged in the actual Q&A. Only for Yoshida to dismissively say, "Go play Ultimate" after the question was poorly translated. They actually had the nerve to say they weren't getting enough feedback on ping issues regarding Hypercharge and Blood Weapon to feel it was a concern despite damn near hundreds of threads, comments and YouTube videos bemoaning how awful both skills were since Shadowbringers. Funny enough, when both NA and JP players flooded the Q&A thread criticising both abilities, they walked that statement back. Machinist still had to wait a whole two patches but their constant complaining on this forum is what got them noticed.

And those are just two examples from this expansion alone where they outright admitted to not knowing issues players had (or straight up not acknowledging them) until they were brought to the forums. There's a reason Sfia made a thread about Endgame gearing here rather then post on reddit or make a video despite being a streamer. That very conversation has been had several times pretty much everywhere. It's widely been a hot button topic that gear progression takes forever in this game. It's gone completely unacknowledged so he came to the forums... just Yoshida says to do with feedback. Now whether they ever listen to the criticism on loot is another matter entirely but they certainly weren't going to notice on Reddit.

[Xirean]

Who said I was? Nowhere in my response did I even insinuate my sole motivation for remaining subscribed was simply to complain on the OF. In fact, this assumption gets thrown away a bit too liberally as a rebuttal. People can still enjoy aspects of the game while being critical. Speaking for myself now, I still enjoy raiding enough to have two separate characters; three if you include my split clear character. Ironically, it's everyone's favourite website that gives Savage longevity but that's where I find my fun. Which isn't to say I don't enjoy other content like crafting, mount farming and whatnot. I dabbled or actively play just about every piece of content. The problem is there still isn't nearly enough with any longevity. Once again, a third party website gives raiding more relevance than SE does. Now if Criterion had better rewards, you could argue that helps. Alas, it doesn't.

Great so you have content that you like doing. I'm honestly not seeing the problem. Even the one you pointed out of longevity. All content in this game has an end point. Are you upset that you reached it? Why? What's the point of trying to achieve something if you never get to the achievement part? Also if your ability to use the forums is not a reason to be subbed then it's an irrelevant thing to bring up at all. I like using the forums, but my sole focus for my sub is the game. I stand by what I said. If you pay your sub for forum use, that's an enormous waste of money. If you don't do that then you brought up something that doesn't matter for....reasons?

Good for you? A good many don't. Hence the backlash. The difference is in the hypothetical scenario where you still get Hildibrand but the relic has actual depth to its progression both subs of players get something to do instead of just you.

You realize there's a lot of people that do actually like the way the relics work in this expansion right? You realize there's a lot of people that didn't like the way it worked in previous expansions right? Am I not allowed to be happy that the content for relics is something that I actually enjoy? Assuming you liked Bozja and Eureka then you got 2 expansions that appealed to you. Why is it suddenly a problem that it now appeals to a different aspect of the player-base?

[SaltyDaddy]

All content in this game has an end point

And thats when we should get.... please drum roll... new content. Whoah!

Also. I dont get your reasoning, that if a person enjoys one side of the game... cant really complain about other sides? Huh?

[Xirean]

And thats when we should get.... please drum roll... new content. Whoah!

Also. I dont get your reasoning, that if a person enjoys one side of the game... cant really complain about other sides? Huh?

When did I say something about people not being allowed to complain? Submit all the feedback you want. But if you're going to post on a public forum, don't be surprised when people respond.

As for the topic of getting new content, we do. Consistently. It might not be at fast pace but we do get new content. All of it might not be of interest to you which is why my go to suggestion is to play what does appeal to you then when you get bored, take a break. I have no interest in pvp, savage, or ultimates. If one was released that suddenly did appeal to me then I'd be happy and play it, otherwise I ignore it. I'm genuinely not sure of the issue here.

[SaltyDaddy]

When did I say something about people not being allowed to complain? Submit all the feedback you want. But if you're going to post on a public forum, don't be surprised when people respond.

As for the topic of getting new content, we do. Consistently. It might not be at fast pace but we do get new content. All of it might not be of interest to you which is why my go to suggestion is to play what does appeal to you then when you get bored, take a break. I have no interest in pvp, savage, or ultimates. If one was released that suddenly did appeal to me then I'd be happy and play it, otherwise I ignore it. I'm genuinely not sure of the issue here.

Your responses so far were "Dont complain/Unsub/there is no problem to be found". Those are not discussion adding responses. People are not surprised by responses, but... how blant they are. By this point, you are just a troll, thats not worth a discussion about. Some of your post you are even contradicting yourself in the same sentence. I dont get you. Are you seriously trying to somehow make people, who are not happy with the game... happy by saying, there is no problem? Are you type of person, who tells "be happy" to someone with depressions? It looks like that. Just answer me, what are you trying to archieve by your comments.

[ForteNightshade]

Great so you have content that you like doing. I'm honestly not seeing the problem. Even the one you pointed out of longevity. All content in this game has an end point. Are you upset that you reached it? Why? What's the point of trying to achieve something if you never get to the achievement part? Also if your ability to use the forums is not a reason to be subbed then it's an irrelevant thing to bring up at all. I like using the forums, but my sole focus for my sub is the game. I stand by what I said. If you pay your sub for forum use, that's an enormous waste of money. If you don't do that then you brought up something that doesn't matter for....reasons?

You're not seeing the problem because you missed the point. That one piece of content which is being stretched incredibly thin across 10+ months only exists because of a third party website/tool the dev team actively dislike. Think about that. It isn't the content itself having any sort of replayability on its own but a secondary source outside of the game giving it one. Now, of course, battle content is finite is every game. However, most games have enough to last a decent length of time relative to both the genre and expected longevity. FFXIV doesn't. And the alternative content it does offer has no longevity. Which brings us back to the other point you missed: people, myself included, want more to do than one or two things.

V/C Dungeons, Island Sanctuary and Relics are all content that had/has absolutely zero staying power this expansion either due to lackluster rewards, poor implementation or a combination of both. To answer your question, I'm not "upset" I reached some arbitrary goal I never made for myself, I'm disappointed every other piece of content has no longevity so that I have more alternative things to partake in than log farming.

You realize there's a lot of people that do actually like the way the relics work in this expansion right? You realize there's a lot of people that didn't like the way it worked in previous expansions right? Am I not allowed to be happy that the content for relics is something that I actually enjoy? Assuming you liked Bozja and Eureka then you got 2 expansions that appealed to you. Why is it suddenly a problem that it now appeals to a different aspect of the player-base?

I never said you couldn't like it. Just expect people are going to disagree with you, especially when your argument hinges entirely on "so I can play other games." Which, by the way, is a completely fine mindset to have. The problem arises when you're upset because other people want more reasons to play this game. In fact, to better illustrate this point, let's create a new relic step come 7.0

We'll go back to the Exploratory Zone and toss in all sorts of ways to progress the relic, some grindy, some not. Make it all a little more involved than Bozja but with some quirks like an actual hunting log or quests relating to that zone. We'll even toss in some bonuses on the relics ala Hydatos exclusive to the zones themselves to give players who want that little extra power something to achieve. We'll cap this off with a Baldesion/Delebrum type raid, albeit with a better queuing systems.

Now here's the caveat. Unlike the lackluster futureproofing both Eureka and Bozja have, we'll make it so you can purchase a replica of every step via tomes sometime during 8.x. In other words, we'll use the EW method for futureproofing.

Everyone gets what they want, right? You have all the time in the world to play different games, especially if you'd rather just wait until the replicas release while players who like the Exploratory Zones get to grind things out. Oh, you don't want to wait to tackle content and feel like in this hypothetical you'll have nothing to do during 7.0? Welcome to how the rest of us feel right now.

The problem people seemingly like to ignore when arguing how they prefer a simple method like tome farming so they can play other games or due to having twelve jobs and eighteen kids is those who want to play FFXIV have less content. You can simply choose not to do <insert content> like Bozja if it doesn't appeal. Or wait for the eventual nerfs to make progression faster. The rest of us don't have a choice this expansion. There just isn't anything else to do. If we opted out of the relic... well, we get even less despite wanting to play FFXIV.

[Xirean]

Now here's the caveat. Unlike the lackluster futureproofing both Eureka and Bozja have, we'll make it so you can purchase a replica of every step via tomes sometime during 8.x. In other words, we'll use the EW method for futureproofing.

Everyone gets what they want, right? You have all the time in the world to play different games, especially if you'd rather just wait until the replicas release while players who like the Exploratory Zones get to grind things out. Oh, you don't want to wait to tackle content and feel like in this hypothetical you'll have nothing to do during 7.0? Welcome to how the rest of us feel right now.

Actually the only issue that I would have in that system is that this replica is in the next expansion rather than the same expansion the relic was released in like all other relics. Unless you meant it differently. Relics tend to not want to go in the darn glamour dresser so we usually need to get the replica item that becomes available immediately after finishing a step. If the system you discuss still allows that while allowing for a completely separate replica obtainment method then I'd have zero issue. This isn't some kind of gotcha. I stand by what I said many times earlier. If the game isn't fun then people should take a break until they have something to come back to. I didn't play Eureka or Bozja till much much later. Long after their relevance had expired and only because I wanted TT cards from them. I still haven't done the last zone of Eureka or progressed either expansions relics passed the first stage or two because the method was just stupid to me. So I ignored it completely and took a break.

I get wanting more things to do in the game. What I don't understand is how the formula for the game is a surprise to you. It's always had content droughts. Why is the suggestion of "take a break" such an issue?

Actually lets say this. Would I be happy if there were more activities in the game that appealed to me that I could spend my time on? Yes. Do I expect the content formula to change in order to get that? No. I expect things to be released that mean nothing to me but mean something to other people. I'll just not engage with that stuff and play when I have something I like. What is the problem with that? It sounds like you just want busy work to keep you stuck in the game near permanently. Is that actually what you want? If so, why?