Dark Knight Megathread

[Zairava]

You can make a case for Living Shadow having more interactive effects, perhaps tied to a finisher move next expansion. A standard damage up buff is probably the least interesting way of doing this. I personally want to see something that counts an effect used by the player (Edge or Bloodspiller) and uses that counter to determine the strength of an tag team finisher. You can also make the case for making it feel more responsive, with shorter summoning time. But I would rather see ways of improving and building off of the existing effect rather than replacing it with a standard two minute buff.

This actually does sound nice. I don't think I'd mind the Bloodspiller spam as much as I do now if it at least amounted to something greater.

That being said, if they do keep us summoning our Living Shadow, I still feel like it should have a shorter summoning time. However, if it came down to putting resources into making Living Shadow more interactive as just discussed or having a shorter summoning animation, I would prefer the former.

[fulminating]

Since living shadow is a pet without a pet, they could just make it a fully fledged one. Give it egi assault I/II, enkindle and have it mimic the DRK's mitigations to help it live through raidwides etc. It'd need to be on a separate GCD because of how busy it'd be otherwise, but it's not like there's any other pet jobs anymore.

[Zairava]

Since living shadow is a pet without a pet, they could just make it a fully fledged one. Give it egi assault I/II, enkindle and have it mimic the DRK's mitigations to help it live through raidwides etc. It'd need to be on a separate GCD because of how busy it'd be otherwise, but it's not like there's any other pet jobs anymore.

Interesting take on it...though I can't exactly say I would like if it DRK suddenly got shifted into a pet job, nor can I see them actually doing it due to their distaste for that type of job. If they were going to give the egi-assaults and enkindle and that, I would rather they just give us Shadowbringers Summoner back.

[Shurrikhan]

Not to get overly bogged down with definitions, but when you use the term 'DoT', the majority of MMO players are going to think specifically of debuff effects on the mob that apply interval damage to it at server ticks. Once you deliberately stray from this to the more literal and general sense of 'Damage Over Time', you won't have a meaningful discussion on the subject with anyone else. It just devolves into a semantic debate where people redefine the term to suit their convenience.

I have to disagree. The definitions useful to gameplay are those that differentiate usage. There is zero difference in usage between...

1. "This attack deals potency per 3 seconds to a single, unchangeable target until having reached a fixed number of ticks and thereby total potency; time remaining can be tracked via a job-specific bonus UI element" (Living Shadow) and
2. "This attack deals potency per 3 seconds to a single, unchangeable target until having reached a fixed number of ticks and thereby total potency; time remaining can be tracked via the Target Status Effects (Debuff) element" (a "traditional DoT").

Living Shadow and any other DoT are both single-target, cannot be directed to new targets, snapshot on activation, and lack any other synergies. I'd like for it be more than a DoT, sure, but it is functionally only that.

Heck, because it's CD locked (like an at-gauge-cost Sonic Break), it even lacks some of the features that would normally allow a DoT to be more interesting (low-target cleave, functioning as a soft-CD, etc).

Although strictly not the same, it's also a similar kind of check to what the old Kaiten ability provided.

Except that Kaiten at least made up one of once 4 different costs (15, 20, 25, 50), while Living Shadow's cost is just Bloodspiller's. Have at least a Bloodspiller of resource ready per 2 minutes, and you're good. And given that Blood Weapon + Delirium can no longer overcap from =<70 Blood, that becomes basically passive.

I personally want to see something that counts an effect used by the player (Edge or Bloodspiller) and uses that counter to determine the strength of an tag team finisher.

Could you flesh out what you mean by "counter" here?

A counter-move? If so, what might the means of activation for the LS skill be like? (If Player action A automatically forces Shadow action A, automatically resulting in "combo" A, for instance, that would function and play indistinguishably from a simple (GCD) damage buff -- be that flat like Bunshin or percentile like FoF/NM, so I'm guessing there'd be something shaking this up a decent bit?)

Or just the stack counter? Do we simply wait until we've used as many Bloodspillers/Edges as are possible within Living Shadow's duration before hitting the same button for a {Living Shadow Finisher}? (I suspect I'm misunderstanding, though, as that wouldn't seem much, if any, more "interactive", even if in keeping with modest additions like Salt and Darkness.)

[Oizen]

If you want to drag down the thread with pointless stupid semantics for another page, you're actually wrong. it is technically more than a DoT. Its also a ranged attack.

DRK's strongest ranged attack. Arguably the strongest ranged attack on any tank.
and allows DRK in niche scenarios to keep uptime where it normally couldn't.

[Shurrikhan]

If you want to drag down the thread with pointless stupid semantics for another page, you're actually wrong.

Ironic.

and [Living Shadow] allows DRK in niche scenarios to keep uptime where it normally couldn't.

It doesn't, though.

A target-locked effect of finite duration that deals a fixed amount of potency over that time with modifiers snapshotted upon initial cast (call it whatever the heck you like, if "DoT" somehow won't suffice) will not increase your melee uptime unless except insofar as it replaces the time otherwise spent on a melee tool (replacing that with something of greater range and therefore able to continue attacking when you otherwise could not).

A tool like old Requiescat that allows you to continue dealing (nearly) full damage (all but AAs) for 9 GCDs regardless of range is something that can potentially increase melee uptime, but Living Shadow acts independently of the time spent on melee skills while it is active, because it's oGCD.

"Well, Living Shadow is still attacking anyways" is not a reason to feel fine about not attacking, yourself, while Living Shadow is up. Your uptime and that of LS's DoT/summon-without-any-properties-of-a-summon/pet-that's-not-a-pet function independently of each other.

So no, Living Shadow is not a "ranged attack" in even a single way that has ever been useful in XIV in the context in which it exists (PvE). It has every characteristic of a single-target DoT --that simply happens in this case to be oGCD-- and no characteristics or uses beyond that.

On the larger topic:

What kind of interplay with the Living Shadow do we want to see?

Let's throw ideas at the board, simulate them for their effects in-practice, and see what seems lucrative.

Some rough ideas mentioned thus far:

1. Living Shadow would instead cause using any GCD while still on the global cooldown to have your Living Shadow perform the attack instead (therefore without incurring the global recast time), with each oGCD granting a temporary charge that allows your Living Shadow to perform it. (Your Living Shadow will automatically teleport to enemies when directed to use melee attacks on enemies out of range, and pressing Living Shadow again while it is active would allow you to switch places with your Living Shadow.) Effectively, a different-feeling Haste buff with some extra bells and whistles. [Synergetic context: Edge/Flood are replaced by a dynamic follow-up version of DA.] -- (Based on my ideas early in the thread.)
   
   
2. Make it an actual pet, and let it do things that leverage its actually being a pet. About 3 command actions should do, some of which could probably be swapped (temporarily upgraded) actions. -- (Based on Fulminating's ideas, this page.)
   
   
3. Living Shadow gets empowered by use of certain abilities, perhaps stacking (culminating in a thus-empowered sort of Shadow-Confiteor based on the number Edge or Bloodspiller, etc. casts) or in a sort of "combo" system (to be decided). -- (Based on Lyth's ideas, this page.)
   
   
4. Doesn't need to be anything too fancy in itself, so long as its (allowances and constraints in) timing forces a significant increase in the kit's total engagement. In that sense, even just a percentile amp could do a fair bit of good for the kit well beyond what LS does now; though that increase wouldn't need to stop with a mere basic damage amp, emphasis should fall equally on the timings of the skill and its impact on (expanding) DRK's fixed CDs' usage (or, options and considerations therein). -- (Based on a frequent/shared idea.)
   
   
5. Discrete actions, similarly to Salt and Darkness (either on LS itself, or such that LS unlocks these for other skills), or perhaps 4th-step combo skills, etc., such that Living Shadow allows for whole new animations and bonus potencies. -- (Based on Zairava's ideas, previous page, themselves influenced by Lyth's and others', iirc.)

[ItsUrBoi]

[*]Discrete actions, similarly to Salt and Darkness (either on LS itself, or such that LS unlocks these for other skills), or perhaps 4th-step combo skills, etc., such that Living Shadow allows for whole new animations and bonus potencies. -- (Based on Zairava's ideas, previous page, themselves influenced by Lyth's and others', iirc.)

What about a similar thing to Bahamut phase / Pheonix phase kind of idea ?
You already have Delirium granting you x3 Bloodspillers and your burst window is kind of weird: You do x3 Bloodspillers, then a Souleater combo.

1. Delirium could grant a 5 action combo, starting with Bloodspiller.
2. All your GCD actions can be copied by Living Shadow, so you basically want to fit all of your strongest GCD attack within Living Shadow, so Frey can do them as well.
3. If you move C&S / Abyssal Drain to being GCDs, this would be 6 actions ( Delirium combo + 1 = 6 actions to be copied, which is exactly how many attacks Esteem does )

The only issue that might rise is the spawning animation delay of Esteem, to counter this Square Enix can make use of Esteem's gauge timer : when you press Living Shadow, the indicator does not appear instantly, it only appears when Frey is ready to copy your GCDs. Esteem can copy 7 GCDs so that you don't have to worry about using a GCD action too early or waiting for the timer to appear in case you use one action that is weaker potency as soon as he is actually read. Esteem's time can be 22 seconds long, so that you have enough time to use your actions.

[Oizen]

Ironic.
It doesn't, though.

More fun useless petty semantics.
I literally just used it in a Eureka Orthos solo to keep uptime on a mob that was Enraging so I could LoS it and keep significant damage up.

Its a ranged attack, just because its not conventional to your semantics doesn't mean it cant be used at a range or while the Dark Knight themselves are not within melee range.

If you want to play super useless semantics, its a ranged oGCD DoT. Which is different from Sonic Break. But no matter how you break it down, it still means it's more than "just a DoT".
Its it an incredibly niche and semantic way to look at a skill? Yes. But so is saying "its a DoT!" as if that really means anything.

Ironic.
[B]What kind of interplay with the Living Shadow do we want to see?

Having it directly copy your actions is a decent idea, though I really question whats the point of having it copy your GCD specifically is. This essentially translates to "It spams Bloodspiller too".
Which I mean its more interactive by technicality, but you're going to be doing the same actions during a burst window,
I just don't think it'll feel all that different than if it cycled through automated attacks like it does now. And we'd have to include a fairly large rework to DRK's core rotation to make it copying GCDs feel worthwhile.

The idea to be able to teleport to where it is sounds neat though. I want more mobility on tanks.

I'm not really into the idea of making it a Pet job.
Feels like if the job was going to be that it would need to have elements of that before lv 80, it would just come out of no where for people leveling DRK.
I also don't think the skill has the uptime to warrant such a drastic change in skill set.

I guess my idea for it would honestly be to have it's actions play into your resources more,
You should get Health/mp from its Abyssal, you should get 600 mp from its Carve and spit, maybe while its out it can generate Blood and MP,
and in turn give DRK more things to spend Blood and especially MP on.bringbackdarkarts

Now should we combine the idea of having it generate resources with copying your abilities, that be something to talk about,
pooling certain resource generating moves into that window to get a fat return and even more explosive burst window.

I pretty much expect the Salt and Darkness approach to it come 7.0 though,
and probably more Enhanced Living Shadow traits to upgrade existing skills it uses to whatever upgrades come in 7.0.

[Silver-Strider]

More fun useless petty semantics.
I literally just used it in a Eureka Orthos solo to keep uptime on a mob that was Enraging so I could LoS it and keep significant damage up.

I don't even play DRK and even I can tell that Living Shadow is just a Glorified DoT. It doesn't give you any more uptime than any other DoT in the game

[Lyth]

The reason why I put up that disclaimer advising against going off on wild tangents around the 'philosophy of DoTs' is because this was all mapped out on reddit ages ago. My personal favorites are 'Auto-Attack is a DoT and 'Substats are DoTs'. But while funny, it derails the more useful and practical discussion at hand over semantics.

If Living Shadow simply duplicates your actions, it turns into Fight or Flight/No Mercy with some arbitrary multiplier attached ('Fight or Flight is a... never mind'). There are alternatives, of course. You could go with a middle ground where Edge/Flood is copied, or Bloodspiller/Quietus produces an upgraded attack when active. You could have Living Shadow itself become a (GCD) proc button when active. You could have an X stack finisher that rewards you for what you do while the Shadow is up or truncates the effect early for phase transitions.

I don't expect a direct rework to Living Shadow. But I would like to see additions to DRK that expand out its offensive gameplay. We need at least one more regular GCD, perhaps comboing off of Bloodspiller such that it indirectly impacts Delirium as well. A finisher to Living Shadow that builds up damage based on what you do while it is active would be nice as well. For a third action my strongest preference would be for a non-damage linked movement ability, or if we could replace Dark Missionary with something more iconic like Runic. What I expect to see is either a merged upgrade of Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain, or an upgrade to Dark Mind that ends up being an indirect nerf.