Dark Knight Megathread

[Eorzean_username]

Hmmm yeah. I'm trying to keep OGCDs out of the picture in any ideas I think of, because I feel like the formula of "Just give them another raw damage OGCD to slap on cooldown" has reached Maximum Staleness in Endwalker, in addition to how unpleasant these OGCD-packed burst sequences are for players with less fortunate connections or geolocations.

But each option has its own problems.

I think at the end of the day though, the Tank framework seems to be that they're not intended to be particularly complex, so looping back and forth between relatively simple goals doesn't seem like a design issue to me — at least, not unless the entire Tank system is allowed to breathe and expand more.

If you just add more "raw combos", you end up with what could potentially just be a lot of clutter or tacked-on nuisance: Paladin and Warrior only gain a (in my opinion) dull and rote maintenance mechanic out of their extra combo, and Gunbreaker successfully dispensed with it completely.

That's actually something I really appreciated about HW Dark Knight — the subtlety of Delirium vs. Souleater being a decision governed by having foresight about MP. With the decoupling of the DRK OGCD system from the GCD system in Shadowbringers, the opportunities for what you can do to justify combos shrank.

Dancer and Monk show that 'repurposing existing GCDs' is a reasonably successful way to add GCD gameplay without actually adding new combos, which is why my mind went there.

Then there's the Machinist 'it's basically a generic OGCD cooldown but it clocks your GCD' filler GCDs, but that seems like a relatively bland way to just shove in extra actions that are technically GCDs, but only in the sense of how much space they occupy in the rotation loop. (hopefully that made any sense)

And there's the Gunbreaker/Red Mage approach of "cooldown combo", which also seems pretty successful and fun.

I'm trying to think of what else can really be done with GCDs...

[Crater]

I don't know if I really agree with this approach of presuming that DRK needs another GCD-based attack simply because it has fewer of them than other tanks, and then working backwards from there to figure out if and how you can actually do something interesting, fun, or productive with it. I don't really see what problem is being solved here, or what meaningful extension to the class's gameplay is to be gained by figuring out how you could implement Bloodspiller 2 or spin Delirium's GCD-based gameplay as being substantially different from Gnashing Fang's GCD-based gameplay.

[Eorzean_username]

I don't know if I really agree with this approach of presuming that DRK needs another GCD-based attack simply because it has fewer of them than other tanks

That's not really the motivation, there's been a lot of explanations for why the focus is on GCDs:

• Assuming you're not deleting actions, what OGCD space does Dark Knight still have to expand with? Shadowbringer already felt superfluous and tacked-on, and the MP bar gives Dark Knight a lot of constraints on room to breathe in burst windows.

• GCD space has shown a lot of promise in adding fresh mechanics to other Jobs in successful ways in recent expansions. Due to the structure that GCDs have vs. the free-form vomit that OGCDs tend to be approached with, it seems to give SE more 'meat' to work with in a design.

• I've seen numerous complaints from all over Dark Knight discussion spaces that repeating the Souleater combo ad-nauseum is trying some players's patience, so another motivation is to try to break up that monotony, which additional OGCDs won't help with.

[Lyth]

I suppose more broadly then, if you were the expansion designer for DRK, and you are allowed to introduce in three new (or upgraded) actions of your choosing, on the condition that you don't alter anything else, how would you freshen up DRK's gameplay? I only suggested GCDs because I've seen recurring complaints that relate to combos and Delirium, but you're welcome to take it in a different direction as well.

You don't actually have to touch anything at all, but there are a lot of creative minds here, so let's see what people come up with.

[Archwizard]

I would like to remind everyone present that nobody here is the arbiter on what the devs consider to be acceptable standards for a job expansion or rework.

You are free to praise or constructively critique the existing job design, even if that means just saying "I like it as it is" and moving on. Nobody can force you to write an entire rework document to back up saying "I don't like X."
You are free to propose any reworks you come up with, provided you are not attached to them to the point of being disappointed if they are not met and you don't pull the thread off-topic.
You are even free to constructively critique suggestions and proposals other people offer, even from a subjective standpoint of "I wouldn't play this job and here's why."

Personally I think there's value in that last one, since it allows you to examine the job through a new lens, pick apart What Works and What Doesn't Work (both in the existing and proposed iterations), and synthesize together new proposals with feedback. "This was a neat idea, but I really would like to preserve X element of the existing job in particular because that's something I really enjoy about playing it" -- that sets a starting point for where to go next.
Much like comparing notes with the other tank jobs, just with hypothetical ones instead. Give it a fair crack sometime!

But devs aside, nobody can or should impose exacting standards upon anyone, because the only standards you can place upon others are your own. No "you can only create 3 new actions and no buttons" nonsense; who here has the authority to set that standard? What other job reworks or expansions have ever fit such stricture? The devs can go as far as they need and want, they just usually prefer a conservative approach mid-expansion for balance reasons, and it's not like they haven't changed something in a .X only to completely flip it on its head at the next .0 opportunity.
(Yes, DRK is pretty bloated with job actions as-is from an objective standpoint. If someone actually forgets that and proposes 5 new actions we don't have space for on the bar, you are free to point that out in post as a practical concern.)
Literally just be constructive, thoughtful and fair, because this is a feedback forum.

Because here's the kicker: Odds are, 99.99% of such proposals don't actually end up in game. You are at no risk from watching someone go ham... unless it actually gains traction and popularity among the community. And usually, that's because they have a point about the concerns implicit to and inspiring such suggestions, and I have rarely seen game devs implement community suggestions verbatim.

Besides, when it comes to spitballing around these parts, many of us take an iterative approach: Shoot for the moon, re-examine it, then dial it back. Personally I think that's as valid a lens as any, and to start from a restrictive premise just caters to stagnation of ideas.

[ThorneDynasty]

Yeah, that is my number 1 pet peeve on these forums, shooting down criticism if you don't write a cringey rework suggestion document no one will actually read. It's not the movie critics job to go reshoot and edit a scene that they don't like, the point of criticism is to figure out what doesn't work. The movie director will then do whatever they will with that.

You can't ask forum feedback to design a game either, it's the game developers job.

[Archwizard]

It's not the movie critics job to go reshoot and edit a scene that they don't like, the point of criticism is to figure out what doesn't work. The movie director will then do whatever they will with that.

Sure, but it is the movie critic's job to clearly illustrate why they don't like a scene or what specifically they don't like about it. For instance, "this is a weird divet in a character's arc and not at all where the story was leading," or "the scene is hard to follow along because X and Y are happening all at once, W has no impact on the rest of the plot and Z is a plot hole," or "So-and-so didn't emote and had weird line readings, and it dragged down the whole scene." They may even suggest what they expected from a characterization, or what plot elements to trim or emphasize earlier, or say "Show us more of X in the sequel."

Constructive feedback should be actionable, not just critical. Otherwise, as Lyth has made the point before, the devs can't know what you object to and just hear "rip everything out root and stem."

[ThorneDynasty]

Sure, but it is the movie critic's job to clearly illustrate why they don't like a scene or what specifically they don't like about it. For instance, "this is a weird divet in a character's arc and not at all where the story was leading," or "the scene is hard to follow along because X and Y are happening all at once, W has no impact on the rest of the plot and Z is a plot hole," or "So-and-so didn't emote and had weird line readings, and it dragged down the whole scene." They may even suggest what they expected from a characterization, or what plot elements to trim or emphasize earlier, or say "Show us more of X in the sequel."

Constructive feedback should be actionable, not just critical. Otherwise, as Lyth has made the point before, the devs can't know what you object to and just hear "rip everything out root and stem."

That's not the same thing as explaining exactly how, say, the script should be rewritten. You can simply say "the character's motivation for doing X was not established" and it's a perfectly good criticism, the critic doesn't then need to write the character's backstory. "Darkside is a completely pointless system that the player doesn't engage with" is valid without coming up with a whole new system. If the dev's hands need to be held to that degree on how to "interpret" criticism, this game is dying.

[ItsUrBoi]

I suppose more broadly then, if you were the expansion designer for DRK, and you are allowed to introduce in three new (or upgraded) actions of your choosing, on the condition that you don't alter anything else, how would you freshen up DRK's gameplay? I only suggested GCDs because I've seen recurring complaints that relate to combos and Delirium, but you're welcome to take it in a different direction as well.

You don't actually have to touch anything at all, but there are a lot of creative minds here, so let's see what people come up with.

Here are my ideas in a simple way, that makes the general gameplay smoother in my humble opinion.
->Removed Dark Mind
->Changed the functionality of Living Shadow and Abyssal Drain.
->Added Scourge

Enhanced Oblation - Trait
-> Increases Oblation's damage reduction to 15%, duration to 12 seconds and grants a heal over time of 200 potency. ( 200 * 4 = 800 potency heal total )

Reason: Oblation is an augment to TBN, meaning you generally use it at the same time as you use TBN to get more value. If you used it and TBN doesn't break, than using just Oblation is better. TBN acts as DRK's strong, personal mitigation, however before Oblation got introduced, you had Dark Mind which acted like an Oblation but only to magic. So at this point to mitigate something which is ( best case scenario ) magic damage you got to use TBN + Oblation + Dark Mind, which barely puts you on the same level as a PLD using Sentinel + Holly Sheltron, despite pushing 3 buttons. On the OGCD heavy job...

Abyssal Drain - Ability
->Deals damage with a potency of 150 to target and all enemies nearby it.
->Gradually restores HP depending on the number of enemies hit, across 15 seconds. Each enemy hit grants a heal over time potency of 200.

Reason: Using Abyssal Drain every 60 seconds is too rare, so either making it available more often, or changing its effect to a regen.

Scourge - Ability
->Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
Additional Effect: Damage over time
Potency: 60
Duration: 18s
Combo action: Syphon Strike

Reason: Now you have to do something while not having Delirium up.

Living Shadow - Ability, Lasts 24 seconds
Merge with Fray to become one with your inner darkness.
-> Increases the potencies of all attacks by 250 potency.
-> At level 88, the potency is increased to 300 via Enhanced Living Shadow.
-> Darkside passive is increased from 10% -> 20% more damage, while under the effect of Living Shadow - given by the trait Enhanced Living Shadow II.

Reason: With this change players should feel more in control and feel like they are the ones actually doing the damage.

[Lyth]

Very true. I don't pay your sub.

You can post pretty much any suggestion in here that you like. That being said, it probably makes more practical sense to come up with ideas that don't simply completely replace DRK with a completely different job, real or homebrew. I think that this is a good rule of thumb for any job design change.

The reason why I've posed this particular challenge in here is for a couple of reasons. First, this is perfect timing to start thinking about what the next expansion will be like for DRK's gameplay. Second, it challenges you to think about how the addition of an action can interact with the existing toolkit in unique ways to in order to create a significant change to playstyle. This is actually one of the things that I think has been pretty smart about BLM's design over the years.

The three action limit that I suggested is based off of what we've actually seen this expansion in Endwalker. We've also seen them trend away from removing actions and towards upgrading them to keep action counts constant. DRK has been a bit behind on the action counts compared to say PLD since Stormblood, so there's probably still some room for a couple of new actions. But who knows, they might all just be animation upgrades.

I will say that I have seen a number of job action ideas bounced around on the forums and ultimately make their way in game shortly after, so either there's a lot of lucky coincidences going around, or perhaps they do look at some of the feedback in here.

At the end of the day, this is still a challenge, which means that it's been entirely optional from the moment I suggested it. I've done this sort of suggestion thread as its own separate thread each expansion since Stormblood (wait, that's not Ingress/Egress in there, is it?), but since there are so many volunteer job designs in here for DRK, we might as well carry on that same momentum in here.

You don't have to follow the constraints that I've suggested, but I think if you try them out yourself, you'll come up with something stronger and even more interesting for it.