I love beautiful animations.. but I think they're too slow for this game

[Phobos]

Show me any modern game that suffers animation lock, I can't think of any and certainly not the newest MMO's around, which are moving more towards action based combat.

I don't think dealing with animation lock is a skill... its more a necessity.

Animation lock is present in action based combat. Ever play a fighting game or the like? The concept is as northernsky points out:

...You could auto-attack the whole fight, or take the risk to launch greater damage at the expense of being hit by a mob special attack...

I've played DCUO which had animation lock. It's a much faster paced MMO than this with incredibly fast PvP and PvE content. IMO, the animation lock (even though you could clip many abilities) makes a fast paced action style game more strategic and similar to a fighting game.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, and will expand upon here - some things should not lock you in animation. I mentioned spells; you're already forced to stand in place to cast, why force animation lock when all you're doing is raising your hand. This simply hurts when there is server lag because you can be moving but still finish a cast and lock yourself. There should also be some abilities/weapon skills that don't animation lock, based on the logistics of the move. For instance, on PGL/MNK - Haymaker seems to utilize the lower body for more power (there's a large torso twist and the character bends down a touch) while something like Aura Pulse has the character jumping in the air and could lend itself to not locking in place, but locking momentum. If some of the "locks" were more logical and nonexistent where it makes sense to be this wouldn't be much of an issue.

That being said, coping with animation lock is a skill. In FFXI for me there were a lot off odd skills that seperated the excellent players from the good players - things like being able to judge your enmity as a BLM and not take hate but maximize damage, etc. Here, in FFXIV we have faster paced combat with animation locks. These locks have their place, though could be considered overused right now. As northernsky mentioned and I'll bring up again - the animation lock serves to make weapon skills dangerous for the user as well as the recipient.

Just because you have to avoid something doesn't mean the ability to avoid it is not a skill.

[Riaayo]

I should state I think learning how to cope with animation lock does require skill, as I see many people unable to do it. But that said, I think our skills should be tested by other mechanics than this. Truthfully if the only thing in the game locking me in place was a WS and I could quickly abort spellcasts or use "instant" abilities on the move, I'd probably be alright as the concept of committing to large damage is not all that terrible in my eyes. But in the end, I like the ability to move at a moment's notice nomatter what I am doing, especially if it requires split-second timing. That is the kind of mechanics I want to have to utilize skill for, because they still feel fluid and like I am in complete control.

Right now 14 does not make you feel in control of your character, it makes you feel like there is a thick layer of molasses between you and them slowing everything you attempt to do down. This kind of delay and feeling of distance between you and your character kills games for me and I'd imagine it's killed games for many other people as well.


But I was pretty sure that between 2.0 being able to blend upper and lower body animations to potentially allow running WSs and Yoshi stating animation lock would be fixed in 2.0, this was more or less /thread. At this point it's REALLY just about opinions which I'm pretty sure everyone's opinion will have equal weight in how they go about fixing it. The graphics will remain pretty, we won't get stuck in place anymore, and the servers will be more responsive. WE ALL CAUGHT THE DRAGON AND WON.

[Jinko]

Well why did they "correct" the doomspike "bug" (i-e being able to move freely while in animation)?

Well we were all scratching out heads on that.

As you say though about separating body animations, the only purpose fort hat IMO would be to allow players to run whilst performing specific moves.

Animation lock is present in action based combat. Ever play a fighting game or the like? The concept is as northernsky points out:

A fighting games mechanics are heavily reliant on animation locks though, MMO's aren't, as I said show me an example of a modern MMO that has game breaking animation locks.

WoW is 8 years old and doesn't have such a thing.

[Lerend]

A fighting games mechanics are heavily reliant on animation locks though, MMO's aren't, as I said show me an example of a modern MMO that has game breaking animation locks.

WoW is 8 years old and doesn't have such a thing.

MMO's are designed however the developers choose to design them. It does not cease to be an MMORPG if the developers choose to incorporate animation lock as one of the core combat mechanics, it's entirely their choice, and IMO one that fits best with a slower style of combat like FFXI/FFXIV.

WoW is also not designed with animation locks in mind. WoWs combat was designed to be fast paced instant reaction button mashing. FFXI and FFXIV are not designed to be the same game that WoW is, this is not WoW, and it will never be WoW. Comparing FFXIV and WoW is comparing Apples to Oranges, they're both food, and they're both fruit, but thats about as similar as they are, and the Orange isn't "flawed" because its not red and doesn't taste like an Apple, it's just different.

That being said, the current issues with animation lock stem from two major *real* problems with the game. The first being that the current server architecture is craptastic, which is why *everything* has some sort of wonky delay to it. They are fixing this when the new servers go live much closer to 2.0, there's nothing that can really be done about it until then. The second being the previously mentioned "cant separate feet from torso" animation issue. They could make your character do the gumby slide like they did in FFXI, and they could probably shave a few "warm up" seconds here and there off the beginnings of certain animations to remedy this, but it looks like according to previously posted quotes from Yoshi P. they already have plans in motion to tackle the issue that rely on the benefits of the 2.0 client.

I'm expecting some degree of animation lock to still be present in 2.0, just like it is in FFXI, because that's part of the design and combat flow they chose for their game, and that's not a de-facto "bad thing," but odds are it will be much more tolerable in the sense that the server isn't going to actively fight you for precise control of when your character does these abilities vs when you pushed the button.

[Riaayo]

MMO's are designed however the developers choose to design them. It does not cease to be an MMORPG if the developers choose to incorporate animation lock as one of the core combat mechanics, it's entirely their choice, and IMO one that fits best with a slower style of combat like FFXI/FFXIV.

Except that FFXIV is not a slow-paced game.

FFXIV, at present, is trying to fight WoW content with the FFXI engine. That is hands-down what this game is right now. The content is fast while the player's ability to react and execute abilities is sluggish, unresponsive, delayed, etc.

You can argue that an MMO is still an MMO no-matter the mechanics the designer puts in, and that is completely true. However if the vast majority of your market does not like or want a mechanic you put in, your MMO will fail because no one will buy or play it.

Your apples and oranges analogy is very sound and I agree mostly, but the problem is if 95% of people like the apple and 5% like the orange, why would you sell a full-blown orange? You won't get your money back from it. It's better to sell the apple with a the best parts of the orange incorporated for the people who like the orange, too.

There's nothing wrong with liking the orange, but expecting the majority to like it if they don't won't work with multi-million dollar AAA game titles that a company is expecting to make profits on. SE has to sell the apple or orange to the market that seems to primarily like the apple. I do hope in the process they can do their best to please everyone, but nobody will be pleased if the game just rots and is abandoned because only a few people could be happy with it and the rest went on to greener pastures (there are a lot of those pastures out there at the moment).

And trust me, while I know most of the "hardcore" community here thinks they'd be thrilled to see all the "WoW crybabies" go, your game will die without those subscribers and you'll be left with nothing but going back to a 10 year old, dieing XI while they've probably found a new, fun game that's making a legitimate attempt to compete with the market.



This all said, I know that this Dev team IS attempting to make this game compete and I actually have a lot of faith in them seeing the things they have done to this game already (aside from still too much RNG and bad drop policies), but I constantly fear the influence of all the negative anti-WoW (or really anti-anything that isn't FF) mentality on their progress.



While I'm here, I'll post these.





Someone posted them a while back on the forums and it's a pretty good explanation as to all the anti-WoW sentiment going on. Many FF players (or many mmo fanboys in general) have not experienced other MMOs and thus fear the change because it's unknown to them, when in all likelihood if they gave it an unbiased chance they would likely enjoy it.

I know some people just don't like WoW or mmos like it and that is ok too; I am pointing out the people who have never touched it but judge anyway.

[Lux_Rayna]

You seem to not understand the intended difficulty of continuing to use the correct abilities in the right rotation or in response to certain conditions while also moving your character out of dangerous mechanics in a fight. I don't like to assume you've never touched a game other than XI or XIV since I'm sure you have and would enjoy throwing the fact in my face, but the way you word it makes you sound like you have not.

I have, but if you couldnt tell this is the only system ive actually enjoyed. Too many MMOs to name and the only one that held my attention for more than a couple weeks is FFXI/FFXIV.

What takes more skill, Lux? Someone sitting around executing a couple of slow-firing abilities every few seconds (with probably 1-2 seconds between them), or someone who has to string together a large amount of abilities (with maybe .5 seconds between each) in the correct order while under pressure from outside stimulation. If you think it's the first, you simply have no clue and are brainwashed by years of telling yourself games like XI were fun and you weren't wasting your time on stupid, bad design.

Solo? Party? Raid? There is no blanket statement here. Being a raid dps takes no skill at all under a "WoW" sort of system (not that it orginated there but whatever). You know what you do? Spam your skills in a practiced predetermined rotation while a cpl raid healers keep your hp up. Skill? Laughable. If danger comes guess what? You can run away! The only skills required in this situation are finger dexterity and knowing when to run away. Even tho, most ppl dont even bother running in those situations...thats the normal culture.

If you're a mage its the same thing, spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. Tank? Spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. The only two classes that really face difficulties in that situation are healers and tanks, due to the sheer amount of finger dexterity required to keep up with everything. Other than that its a joke. Unless you're a healer, or *maybe* a tank, all you need to do is press buttons as fast as you can to run up parser. Pvp? Same thing. I press my buttons faster than you I win, unless your gear is way more OP than mine. Because things move so fast there's very little time for strategy, since it is over within a few seconds anyway. Generally speaking, gear being equal, first hit wins almost every time, not counting class advantages.

I tried to understand the desire of a "slow mmo" by comparing it to something like chess, as that is a turn based thinking game. Then I remembered that many high end chess players will play with a clock and try to make quicker moves, and I was back to not understanding the point of this.

A clock just gives a time limit. FFXIV has the same time limit...for instance you have a combo clock which gives you only few seconds to decide whether you will risk an animation lock or whether you'll play it safe and wait.

Truthfully, I am beginning to believe that turn-based, slow paced games are the "cartoon kid games" you guys like to insult WoW as. They are a game that allows you all the time in the world to try and figure out your next move at whatever slow pace you need to go.

Thats just it, fast-paced games dont necessarily require you to think. I've played WoW; unless you're a healer or *maybe* a tank you dont need to think at all. If you do you're a newb, because you've been doing the same skill rotation for god knows how long. WoW is a gear game, not a thinking game. If your gear is superior you will pwn. That is just the fact of it. The only real thinkers are healers, but healers are thinkers in every game. If you want to play a trigger-happy game that is about skill, go play an FPS. MMORPGs can't mimick that sort of difficulty because the way an MMO is designed to work. At most itll give you a button mashing format to keep your mind feeling "alive," but in no way are you really "thinking". Its "twitch combat", which is a function of reflex more than a function of thought and strategy.

The difficulty in games like WoW is a physical one..the ability to react accurately and efficiently. The difficulty in games like FFXIV is mental, the ability to predict and take strategized actions within a certain time limit. One style isn't more difficult than another, I just find WoW to be a poor example of actually difficult twitch combat...mostly due to the way that gear trumps everything in that game. An FPS is truly twitch combat.

[Riaayo]

I have, but if you couldnt tell this is the only system ive actually enjoyed. Too many MMOs to name and the only one that held my attention for more than a couple weeks is FFXI/FFXIV.



Solo? Party? Raid? There is no blanket statement here. Being a raid dps takes no skill at all under a "WoW" sort of system (not that it orginated there but whatever). You know what you do? Spam your skills in a practiced predetermined rotation while a cpl raid healers keep your hp up. Skill? Laughable. If danger comes guess what? You can run away! The only skills required in this situation are finger dexterity and knowing when to run away. Even tho, most ppl dont even bother running in those situations...thats the normal culture.

If you're a mage its the same thing, spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. Tank? Spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. The only two classes that really face difficulties in that situation are healers and tanks, due to the sheer amount of finger dexterity required to keep up with everything. Other than that its a joke. Unless you're a healer, or *maybe* a tank, all you need to do is press buttons as fast as you can to run up parser. Pvp? Same thing. I press my buttons faster than you I win, unless your gear is way more OP than mine. Because things move so fast there's very little time for strategy, since it is over within a few seconds anyway. Generally speaking, gear being equal, first hit wins almost every time, not counting class advantages.




A clock just gives a time limit. FFXIV has the same time limit...for instance you have a combo clock which gives you only few seconds to decide whether you will risk an animation lock or whether you'll play it safe and wait.



Thats just it, fast-paced games dont necessarily require you to think. I've played WoW; unless you're a healer or *maybe* a tank you dont need to think at all. If you do you're a newb, because you've been doing the same skill rotation for god knows how long. WoW is a gear game, not a thinking game. If your gear is superior you will pwn. That is just the fact of it. The only real thinkers are healers, but healers are thinkers in every game. If you want to play a trigger-happy game that is about skill, go play an FPS. MMORPGs can't mimick that sort of difficulty because the way an MMO is designed to work. At most itll give you a button mashing format to keep your mind feeling "alive," but in no way are you really "thinking". Its "twitch combat", which is a function of reflex more than a function of thought and strategy.

The difficulty in games like WoW is a physical one..the ability to react accurately and efficiently. The difficulty in games like FFXIV is mental, the ability to predict and take strategized actions within a certain time limit. One style isn't more difficult than another, I just find WoW to be a poor example of actually difficult twitch combat...mostly due to the way that gear trumps everything in that game. An FPS is truly twitch combat.

So you're saying that a culture in which DDs have to move out of mechanics requires less skill than a culture where DDs don't move at all, eat damage, and have the healer hold their hand even further? The second is XI and XIV, if you did not know.

Everything you say in here can be turned around on XI and XIV, with even more criticism. How was DDing in XI not just as per-determined of a "rotation" other than the fact it as 100x slower than WoW? There's no difference. Auto attack for TP > WS > Repeat. Highest tier Thunder > Highest tier Blizzard > wtfever Blms did. How's that take skill...? That's laughable. And the best part is you just tank and spanked, there was NO mechanics to make you survive in bosses on 11 (as a healer I love the idea that DDs can be smart and avoid damage so I can focus on a tank, or that they out-right die if they don't move and it's totally their own fault). You just zerged like an idiot and got healed through it. XI did not take skill but everyone who played it seems to be under the delusion that it did so that they can think they were a great gamer.

XI "raiders" don't know anything about actual mmo mechanics. FFXI fights were little more than "Don't attack the mob," "Attack the mob," and "Zerg the mob." That's the modes that existed in encounters in that game. The only things I can recall in XI that people moved out of to avoid were Stonega from Kirin and Citadel Buster off Proto-Ultima... what the hell else did people move out of? NOTHING. We ate astral flows with our bibs already nestled in our shirt collar and we dined on self-destructs. We just took dmg to the face without a care in the world because a healer would put a band aid on our stupid DD ass and we'd keep on going. No, this was not skill. Nor was the millions of gil spent on your Kraken Clubs, if you want to talk about gear playing your class for you.

There is not a single piece of gear in WoW that made you a better player, helped you dodge boss mechanics, or made you win raids. The player's ability did all of that. You say other mmos couldn't hold your interest for more than a couple of weeks? Then I doubt you even hit max level, let alone raided in WoW, and if you didn't do those and do them for an extended period of time you have no idea what you are even talking about.

Furthermore, you have to predict abilities in WoW even more than you did in XI or XIV because they actually require you to move unlike the previously mentioned XI mechanics. XIV is trying to be more like WoW but sadly still suffers from the ability to find an infinitely safe spot to huddle in and then dps rotation without ANY care in the world (or skill).


If we want to talk about an FPS being "truly twitch" then lets compare. What's the better FPS: the one where you have to run between cover and return fire while trying not to get hit, or the one where you stand in the middle of a field, not moving, continually shooting and reloading while your buddy med-packs you back to full life to take the incoming damage? I'll let you figure out the right answer.




All of this said, this has boiled down to hijacking a thread about animation locking and turning it into a Final Fantasy VS The World discussion; which may not be completely unwarranted but it's not exactly the original purpose, either. The world is a big place, though... might care to take more than a couple of weeks to sample the other things it has to offer.

[Adam]

I have, but if you couldnt tell this is the only system ive actually enjoyed. Too many MMOs to name and the only one that held my attention for more than a couple weeks is FFXI/FFXIV.

This is a giant wall of text that only makes you seem like you know what you're talking about. First off you haven't put enough time in any other MMO that much is apparent. Most MMOs do not truly begin until you hit the level cap. It's the same thing in FF. Nobody cares about small NMs or AF quests as far as accomplishments go. It's all about what have you beaten, this HNM or this dungeon. Same thing in WoW you haven't raided in wow or PvP'd because the way you described it is completely wrong.

Now you say it's just finger dexterity and knowing your rotation. Isn't it the same in FFXIV? I constantly spam my next action in dungeons when tanking or dpsing. Healers heal you while you dps and tank? come on what does FFXIV do so differently? Hmmm okay you might have me on the "knowing when to run away" part, it's nothing like the Ifrit, Moogle, Ogre, Misser, Chimera battles in FFXIV... Tanks spam provoke and flash and use combos to hold aggro.

>>NEWS FLASH<<
This just in! Tanks in all mmos use provocative abilities and use their abilities to hold aggro
>>END NEWS FLASH<<<

Let me inform you as an old time arena junkie. Knowing your rotation helps but is not your number one priority, PvP is about knowing your opponent and having their specific counter ability ready to go.

Gear is not what makes you good or bad at wow, this statement clearly shows me you've never actually played wow. Gear is there because THE PEOPLE PLAYING the game want new fresh things, old gear is handed out(so everybody has gear to raid or pvp with) while the truly great gear is hard earned rewards that aren't "needed" to win. Twitch combat? I've never heard of that. I think what you ment to say was "people who think faster then me." There is no such thing it requires much faster "thinking." Sounds like some made up thing to justify your own bad.

FFXIV however no matter how ready you are for ability X you're still in risk of getting hit! Try tanking coincounter. I tested it a few times where I sat there did NO actions, and waited for 100 tonz swing. Guess what!? It hit me half the time. I pressed down on my joystick (I play on a controller) as soon as I saw the ability, my filters are set up to only show me enemy abilities and it still wasn't fast enough. It's an extremely unforgiving ability with to short of a cast time then on top of that, you get caught in animation lock!? My party keeps nuking and building aggro I have to keep building aggro. I do not want to stand there and run away while doing no action an entire fight (it's not very fun). Yes they have to keep nuking we do speed runs, we do not take the entire 60 mins. Now I just stand there and foresight, featherfoot, sentinal it off. Coincounter was meant to fall down that's why he falls when he misses 100 tonz, and I can't play the game's mechanic properly because of animation locks.

[ejiboo]

once again this seems like a cry from someone who can't adapt to the game mechanics.

i'm going to hit a lot of points already mentioned: animation lock is great! it's frustrating but to some extent, it separates the the skilled from the unskilled. you need to know when to use what and compensate for any other factors present.

OP; this is just a nice way to say that you suck and want the game dumbed down. moving during animations!? sliding across the screen??? come the fuck on now, if they make it so you can move during whirlwind, possibly the LONGEST AND WORST ws to use, on basically any boss and maybe even EVER then that's fuckin retarded.

you're trying to score huge numbers on an enemy so you should also be taking a chance with your life! i can't even really gather all of my feelings about this because it's just another one of those whines from players with the inability to adapt! it's like people who cry about getting hit by eruptions. i went to ifrit the first time since the patch yesterday and killed ifrit in 4 minutes... FOUR MINUTES! i wish they would make him HARDER! MUCH HARDER, so all you gimps don't even have a fighting chance.

it's my birthday and i'll cry if i want to but it's not so go pro or go home DAMN, yall make me seem like such a pissed off, jerk.

[Rokien]

once again this seems like a cry from someone who can't adapt to the game mechanics.

i'm going to hit a lot of points already mentioned: animation lock is great! it's frustrating but to some extent, it separates the the skilled from the unskilled. you need to know when to use what and compensate for any other factors present.

OP; this is just a nice way to say that you suck and want the game dumbed down. moving during animations!? sliding across the screen??? come the fuck on now, if they make it so you can move during whirlwind, possibly the LONGEST AND WORST ws to use, on basically any boss and maybe even EVER then that's fuckin retarded.

you're trying to score huge numbers on an enemy so you should also be taking a chance with your life! i can't even really gather all of my feelings about this because it's just another one of those whines from players with the inability to adapt! it's like people who cry about getting hit by eruptions. i went to ifrit the first time since the patch yesterday and killed ifrit in 4 minutes... FOUR MINUTES! i wish they would make him HARDER! MUCH HARDER, so all you gimps don't even have a fighting chance.

it's my birthday and i'll cry if i want to but it's not so go pro or go home DAMN, yall make me seem like such a pissed off, jerk.

Awww you left our server!~