Should XIV add more end game combat content.

[NekoMataMata]

Can we please PLEASE stop acting like ultimates are a boogeyman who are sucking the life out of the devs. We get two of these per expansion if we're lucky so not like it's keeping them up all day and all night crunching.

Also this 1% BS is the silliest strawman and I'm getting tired of it. 12% of players have actually cleared uwu and 8% of players have cleared tea. (Source: https://ffxivcollect.com/titles?q%5B...cont%5D=legend) and these are just from titles so it doesn't count people who aren't wearing it. At the end of the day though, clear rates don't even matter that much. What matters most is that people attempt them and that number is without a doubt a lot higher.

Finally, raiders aren't the ones who are advocating for taking content away from other people. I personally enjoy just playing the game for the sake of playing the game and so a lot of "casual" things the games have to offer are rather enjoyable. And if a raider doesn't feel like doing it, they play something else. It's the "Casuals" who are advocating for removing a large and historic part of the game because they selfishly think it will give them more content because they're the not the minority.

So I'm not a statistics expert or anything, but when you use the clear rates from UWU and TEA as examples do you consider that it's an estimate provided for the entire playerbase of content that was created 4-5 years ago? UCoB which is even older is sitting at 7.4% as well.

The clear rates of older ultimates are probably going to go up over time, but I don't believe that means the clear rate is representative of active players.

Oh and FFXIV Collect grabs data from anyone with their lodestone page set to public. I don't believe there's that many people with their pages set to private. It doesn't care about whether or not the person is wearing/wears their title. The moment the achievement is earned Collect logs it.

So. Based on that let's be generous and give UWU +3% clears that we don't know about. Let's go on and double that to account for the people attempting but not clearing as well. That's 30% activity. You are still in the minority by a lot, and that's being incredibly generous. I get that the whole "only 1% of the player base bothers with ultimates" is a massive exaggeration, but it doesn't change the fact that only a minority of the player base does in fact bother engaging with ultimates.

30% of the total player base with a very, very generous estimation. Not the active player base that plays through the post expansion patches, just the total player base.

Anyways, continue on.

[Kosachi]

So I'm not a statistics expert or anything, but when you use the clear rates from UWU and TEA as examples do you consider that it's an estimate provided for the entire playerbase of content that was created 4-5 years ago? UCoB which is even older is sitting at 7.4% as well.

The clear rates of older ultimates are probably going to go up over time, but I don't believe that means the clear rate is representative of active players.

Oh and FFXIV Collect grabs data from anyone with their lodestone page set to public. I don't believe there's that many people with their pages set to private. It doesn't care about whether or not the person is wearing/wears their title. The moment the achievement is earned Collect logs it.

So. Based on that let's be generous and give UWU +3% clears that we don't know about. Let's go on and double that to account for the people attempting but not clearing as well. That's 30% activity. You are still in the minority by a lot, and that's being incredibly generous. I get that the whole "only 1% of the player base bothers with ultimates" is a massive exaggeration, but it doesn't change the fact that only a minority of the player base does in fact bother engaging with ultimates.

30% of the total player base with a very, very generous estimation. Not the active player base that plays through the post expansion patches, just the total player base.

Anyways, continue on.

Im not arguing that ultimate raiders are the majority. What I am saying is that there's enough people out there who enjoy the content to merit its existence.

The whole majority/minority argument is completely stupid to begin with.

One: You can make any community to be a extreme minority just by cutting it down. like: "Only 1% of players have a house. We should scrap housing" or "Only 1% of players go to older zones, we should scrap them" (I know this is not accurate, just making a point) As long as people enjoy and cherish content, that is enough for it to exist.

Two: 30% isn't a majority but it's bloody huge. More than enough to merit it not getting scrapped??????????? Do you need a majority of people for something to exist?

[NekoMataMata]

Im not arguing that ultimate raiders are the majority. What I am saying is that there's enough people out there who enjoy the content to merit its existence.

The whole majority/minority argument is completely stupid to begin with.

One: You can make any community to be a extreme minority just by cutting it down. like: "Only 1% of players have a house. We should scrap housing" or "Only 1% of players go to older zones, we should scrap them" (I know this is not accurate, just making a point) As long as people enjoy and cherish content, that is enough for it to exist.

People exaggerate. We all do it until we're defending something that matters to us. Doesn't make the stance that was provided inaccurate.

Also, I don't know if you remember but 30% was being very generous. There's a lot to consider. Do we count people that tried ultimates once or twice in PF in that number? How long does someone have to prog(while never completing it) to count among those numbers?

Besides that, go back to my point about the active playerbase. Content, especially repeatable patch content focuses on the active playerbase at the time. I'm not going to make numbers up because I really don't know how much of our pretend estimate of 30% actively plays the game, but considering that UWU is 5 years old, there's a good chance that a good chunk of the people that engaged with it are not a part of the active player base. An estimate of 30% seems big until you consider the activity over all across all 5 of that ultimates existence, and compare each chunk of activity at any given time to the amount of the active player base that's not partaking in it.

Do you need a majority of people for something to exist?

It depends. We don't really know how much effort goes into developing Ultimates. There's a lot more information you'd need before you'd make a decision like that.

Anyways, I don't really care about whether or not they keep making Ultimates. I was mostly just annoyed by how you spread misinformation about FFXIV Collect, and how you exaggerated exactly like the person you were responding to.

[ForteNightshade]

30% of the total player base with a very, very generous estimation. Not the active player base that plays through the post expansion patches, just the total player base.

Anyways, continue on.

You do realize 30% is absolutely massive, yes? There is no single piece of content in this game except MSQ and 24 mans with that much participation when looked at individually. Even cutting that number in half, it would remain impressive if accurate. People too often much like a theme park, people won't do everything and even a good chunk of the casual content will get ignored if someone dislikes it just like Ultimate will for those finding it too hard. While the latter is on the smaller slice of pie, it's numbers are fairly solid overall for the type of content it is. Omega is possibly the only exception as present clear rates are quite low; just 1,500 as of early March.

It should also be noted achievements are hidden by default on the lodestone. So it actually makes it harder to gather data on the amount of clears or participation. FFlogs is usually what tracks a good amount of this.

It depends. We don't really know how much effort goes into developing Ultimates. There's a lot more information you'd need before you'd make a decision like that.

Anyways, I don't really care about whether or not they keep making Ultimates. I was mostly just annoyed by how you spread misinformation about FFXIV Collect, and how you exaggerated exactly like the person you were responding to.

Actually, we do. Yoshida has outright said that roughly 95% of Ultimate is entirely reused assets, which means they have extremely high return on investment given how much viewership and attention they garner. Considering they decided to add onto them with a new boss model and arena for the final phase starting with TEA, it's clearly a worthwhile endeavour. Although, it should be noted both Dragonsong and Omega have no new music added, thus subtracting a pretty hefty cost.

Naturally, they still take time to develop but the cost itself is extremely minimal based on Yoshida's own comments. Hence why whenever someone brings up Ultimate being a waste, it's eyerolling.

[Jojoya]

Actually, we do. Yoshida has outright said that roughly 95% of Ultimate is entirely reused assets, which means they have extremely high return on investment given how much viewership and attention they garner. Considering they decided to add onto them with a new boss model and arena for the final phase starting with TEA, it's clearly a worthwhile endeavour. Although, it should be noted both Dragonsong and Omega have no new music added, thus subtracting a pretty hefty cost.

Naturally, they still take time to develop but the cost itself is extremely minimal based on Yoshida's own comments. Hence why whenever someone brings up Ultimate being a waste, it's eyerolling.

Yes, and no.

Cost for production of new assets for the encounter are comparably low because they're reusing assets from the original encounter (probably mixed with assets from other instances). But there's still the cost of the developers that are merging the old assets with the new, designing the encounter mechanics, doing the QA to make certain the elements are functioning as intended and finally doing the actual fight testing.

YoshiP has the latter is done by developers who normally have other assignments and have to be pulled away from those tasks when testing of the encounter is finally ready to begin. He also said that testing takes much longer for an Ultimate than it does for other instanced encounters.

I wouldn't call the costs minimal but they would still be less than designing an entire raid from scratch.

Even if I never do an Ultimate myself, I don't consider it a waste. It has its place in the theme park same as the everything else and it works well as a publicity tool in attracting attention to the game, bringing in more players.

This game needs a completely new structure for the gear treadmill to make new endgame content worthwile.

That's an argument that could be made of most MMOs. Does the gear treadmill really hold up after all these decades or should different reward systems be the carrot?