BLM DPS

[Ggwppino]

my point is not that BLM do not do damage.....

I know that BLM have a nice DPS quite even with other DPS class...

My point is that Why shoud a group take a BLM (with a good DPS like a lot of other class, yes BUT no other advantage) vs all the other class that do the SAME DPS but have some advantage...(SMN, RDM, NIN, RPR, BRD, etc .....)

So because BLM bring NOTHING more, i think BLM shoud do more DPS that other class

(and i don't speak about DPS on a dummy.....)

In my opinion the point of view is wrong. The rDPS (damage considering buff) of the blm, even without buff, is still far greater than the other casters. Rightly since it is more complex to optimize it.
So if a party has to choose to bring an expert blm or an expert rdm, the expert blm is better to pass the checks more easily. In addition, an expert blm, can replace any melee Clearly this is a consideration for a hypothetical clear.
For a prog it might actually be different because there might be other considerations: ress available if potentially more useful than rDPS and/or speed with which you can actually optimize damage during newly learned mechanics for example. So even if you add rDPS, these considerations still apply.

[Turtledeluxe]

In my opinion the point of view is wrong. The rDPS (damage considering buff) of the blm, even without buff, is still far greater than the other casters. Rightly since it is more complex to optimize it.
So if a party has to choose to bring an expert blm or an expert rdm, the expert blm is better to pass the checks more easily. In addition, an expert blm, can replace any melee Clearly this is a consideration for a hypothetical clear.
For a prog it might actually be different because there might be other considerations: ress available if potentially more useful than rDPS and/or speed with which you can actually optimize damage during newly learned mechanics for example. So even if you add rDPS, these considerations still apply.

I like how you add in the utility if RDM to undermine your own post and highlight TCs concerns.

TC you aren't going to get any support on the forum. The player base isn't concerned with balancing the game. The average player likes that combat is a free for all DPS zerg now because to the average player that's "fun".

Like this post is basically saying "Oh do you have a problem? Well just be an expert (which is different for any given raider) . For other classes, utility will help you stay relevant."

[Ggwppino]

I like how you add in the utility if RDM to undermine your own post and highlight TCs concerns.

TC you aren't going to get any support on the forum. The player base isn't concerned with balancing the game. The average player likes that combat is a free for all DPS zerg now because to the average player that's "fun".

Like this post is basically saying "Oh do you have a problem? Well just be an expert (which is different for any given raider) . For other classes, utility will help you stay relevant."

I'm sorry, I can't follow your argument
The blm has to compete with 2 casters that have ress, it's factual, and it's a situation they will always have, even if they have infinite dps. There will be statics that will prefer to be more cautious and have some ress and there will be statics that will prefer not to have problems once they get to enrage because they will have so much more dps. Am I saying the wrong things? I do not think so. Also I'm attributing to blm the fact that it's a class that has a much more complex optimization than the other classes, and here again I don't think I'm wrong. Not for this the blm, having the same damage if not higher than that of melees, currently can very well replace a melee in a party. I'm doing it wrong? I do not think. I'm also stating that with the same skill the blm overpowers any other caster in rDPS, even without buffs, I don't think I'm wrong.

[Turtledeluxe]

I'm sorry, I can't follow your argument
The blm has to compete with 2 casters that have ress, it's factual, and it's a situation they will always have, even if they have infinite dps. There will be statics that will prefer to be more cautious and have some ress and there will be statics that will prefer not to have problems once they get to enrage because they will have so much more dps.

Then the solution is to give BLM some kind of utility-not telling every BLM player they have to be the top tier best performers in the game in order to make their class barely worth playing based on a few % points you calculated for the Omega Protocol. That isn't relevant to the average player experience anyway. Players are dismissive of any kind of solution for BLM because they don't want their own classes to lose their utility and/or DPS edge they currently have. Also BLM aren't just competing with ranged casters-- I'm not sure why you frame it that way. This is a DPS forum-- DPS roles are being compared in general. Framing it as a BLM vs RDM debate just narrows the scope of things to avoid having a larger discussion about the major problems of this game's gameplay today.

You're also hyper focusing on damage and utility as metrics. Don't forget mobility. Yes BLM has mobility if you know what you're doing, but overall the play style is focused on being static to maintain DPS. That doesn't appeal just everyone. DPS balance appears to be driven by the theory that "well if one job has top DPS, everyone will play that job" but that isn't true. People generally play jobs because of the way the job feels AND the role they play. Reaper may do less damage than BLM on average but there are tons of reapers, because of the aesthetic and how it feels to play. We keep pretending making classes like BLM and SAM indisputable top DPS is an issue when it really isn't. And actually for this reason I'd say that your claim that "utility is something BLM will always have to deal with" is off. If BLM had a decent enough edge in DPS, that alone would be the motivator to play it. The motivator right now is-- umm well do you like to stand still, have a harder time proggging, etc?

And unfortunately there really is no going back imo. SE has started on this path of simplifying all jobs, making DPS very close in range between everyone, so now everyone feels entitled to it. This isn't just an issue in TOP but for casual content...tanks and healers prioritize DPS over their roles in gameplay. It's larger conversation happening and people blame every random thing except the issue staring us in the face-- the roles make no sense in this game anymore overall and you can just faceroll the content.

[Ggwppino]

Then the solution is to give BLM some kind of utility-not telling every BLM player they have to be the top tier best performers in the game in order to make their class barely worth playing based on a few % points you calculated for the Omega Protocol.

We're talking high-level content, I expect the skill level to be commensurate (for any class). You play with 7 other people who want to clear, it's just respect. Then in this case it depends on the static and to make it clear immediately that you can't guarantee a certain level of optimization, each static has the right to make his own considerations. But that's not the point and it never wanted to be. I wanted to underline how difficult the blm is to optimize but playing the class you are aware of this fact. And if you don't get to a certain degree of optimization, you can't expect to do the same damage as a dps that is highly optimizing. So when I compared rdm and blm experts because it is the closest parameter to be able to say that in any case the optimization of the blm is paid. (I didn't compare it with the smn because that would have been a joke.)

The post was born, with the wrong consideration. It's one thing to say that the blm does equal damage to the other casters but the other casters also have buffs, so the post is implying that the other casters' rDPS is actually higher, which is not true, It is one thing to say that the level of optimization complexity is not well rewarded. (proportionate pay? too little pay? Let's discuss)

Also BLM aren't just competing with ranged casters-- I'm not sure why you frame it that way. This is a DPS forum-- DPS roles are being compared in general.

because in the game blm competes for the caster spot. And unlike the other casters, it can also compete for the second spot of melee.

Don't forget mobility

w8, if the blm is considered one of the most difficult classes to optimize, it is also because of its mobility. When you play the class, you know very well that it will be complicated to adapt to the mechanics because from level 1 you are put in the condition that you cannot move.

If BLM had a decent enough edge in DPS, that alone would be the motivator to play it.

And it already is. The blm is a class that does a lot of damage, certainly more than other casters, and not by such an indifferent percentage. So even if it gets more damage, it will not change the situation blm already has.

[Turtledeluxe]

We're talking high-level content, I expect the skill level to be commensurate (for any class). You play with 7 other people who want to clear, it's just respect.

Making DPS a free for all is not respect. It's bowing down to players who think they know what they want instead of delivering your own vision for the game which brought it to massive success to begin with. The main problem with FFXIV and many other games is over catering to this tiny % of players who are very vocal and very competitive. Those are the facts. What other people are saying about BLM dps may be technically incorrect because of how they framed, but it's simply too low to justify using the class on average. The big picture quite simply that that if a class is a selfish DPS, whether we're talking about BLM or whoever, there HAS TO BE some kind of incentive to play that class. It's in the name: selfish DPS. Without top DPS, it's just selfish. It's not complicated. Yes you can be hardcore and optimize it to achieve your 1-2% extra dps, but that's unrealistic given the average player will never be hardcore. Again, that's why the distinctions exist.

because in the game blm competes for the caster spot. And unlike the other casters, it can also compete for the second spot of melee.

Being able to compete with melee is an absolutely terrible incentive to play a ranged caster. "Don't worry, you can do as much damage as melee!". It should compete against any other class that does high damage. Being a ranged glass cannon has obvious pros and cons that FFXIV refuses to adhere by. Glass cannons are top DPS, zero question, at the expense of mobility, vitality, and defense. In the current paradigm BLM is an ok cannon, perhaps top ish, with all of those downsides and zero partywide utility.

And it already is. The blm is a class that does a lot of damage, certainly more than other casters, and not by such an indifferent percentage. So even if it gets more damage, it will not change the situation blm already has.

I would love to see the data you like so much to show me how the completion rates are for ultimate raids over time for BLM versus every other class. I'd also like to see the data you're using to determine that the damage % differences are adequate.

[Ggwppino]

snip

He is a selfish dps and does much more percentage damage than his counterparts who could "steal" the spot from him.

Currently
pros: does *much* more damage than the others casters; has double chance to play because he has 2 spots available instead of one.
cons: doesnt have ress(?).

Increase his damage:
pros: does *much* more damage than others casters, but even more; has double chance to play because he has 2 spots available instead of one.
cons: doesnt have ress(?).

If you increase the damage to the blm, you are doing it for a status symbol and not for actual usefulness. If you increase damage to blm, it is only because you want to see the bar on fflog first with considerable detachment even with melee and not for actual utility.

Does it bother you to see on fflog your 99 being beaten by 99 rpr for 100 more rdps even though you put in three times as much effort? That's okay, I can understand it to some extent, but don't say that the other 2 casters make the same dps as the blm, because that's not true.

Who should complain about the damage first of all, should be the rdm who is generally under a class that the major optimization is to not accidentally press an already summoned elemental.