BLM DPS

[AsiTsurugi]

like i said... on a dummy oh yes BLM do more DPS.... BUT, in a fight, when you need to move, to avoid attacks, the BLM dps is barely above mid dps class... with no advantage (no rez, no party buff, no heal,...)

Sounds like a skill issue there buddy, might be time to not be bad at the game. Crying about "mechanics" in your roulette content is not it.

[Turtledeluxe]

Sounds like a skill issue there buddy, might be time to not be bad at the game. Crying about "mechanics" in your roulette content is not it.

And here we have the exact example of why some people don't play the job. "Well just be an expert at FFXIV, silly!". Not everyone plays the game like their life depends on and knows every fight like the back of their hand. I personally get commendations often-- I don't track my DPS but I assume it's high fairly often and I've even been told my dps is good directly sometimes. Casual content is too easy imo. But this kind of attitude discourages people. If you're learning this particular (I personally wouldn't say difficult, but it's different) job it can be discouraging to be trying really hard to keep up with your rotation 24/7 and know every fight up and down only to be quickly told "get gud" at every turn. I encounter new healers and tanks that suck allll the time and I'm never rude to them because I want to give them a chance to learn their role, not minmax them out of the game.

I'd be super interested to know if you respond to healers and tanks this way, or even other DPS.

[Lyth]

I'll be really curious to see what happens next expansion if another 'non-utility caster' is added. Introducing in new jobs into a role invariably brings up insecurities and turf wars (as we've seen this expansion). Whenever players start comparing subjective experiences around 'job difficulty' to leverage more dps, you invariably see a simplifying rework get introduced. ('Oh, your job is more difficult than all the rest, you say? Well, why don't we just rework that instead of giving you a dps advantage over everyone else.')

The main reason why BLM has been so consistently successful to date is specifically because its players are fairly chill about the difficulty level and don't go out of their way to demand extra advantages for it. It's never been reworked as a result. As a result, the job is allowed to keep building on what it had previously, rather than having to recover from a rework/reset. If this mindset changes, though, the job is very quickly going to come into the rework crosshairs.

We saw this exact scenario play out already with a certain melee dps job and a certain deleted action this expansion. You know where this road leads. The choice is yours.

[Bubos123]

First of all, I believe BLM should deal more damage given its difficulty. The thing is SE just wanted to promote melee jobs since Endwalker and made them top in terms of damage output. But something you mentioned is wrong:
1. A good but not perfect metric for comparing damage output is rdps. SAM has nearly the same rdps as other melee classes, and BLM is slightly lower than melee but significantly higher than RDM&SMN. Classes like SAM, BLM&MCH don’t have raid buffs but can deal more damage by themselves.
2. Other than raid buffs, if you’re saying some classes have rez and mit and it’s a great advantage. My opinion is it really depends. Generally these would be an advantage over other classes. However in many hardcore contents they’re not as useful as you may think. For example, in W1 prog of P8S, dps check is much more a problem than mitigation, so I’d say BLM is optimal rather than SMN&RDM. And both BLM and SAM have a personal mitigation, which can be more useful than group mitigation occasionally.

[CelestiCer]

You want a M.Ranged job for Party Bonus Buff and BLM are also desired for their High DPS. BLM in the Current 6.35 patch, can clear any content, thus the need for more DPS becomes more of a want.

Square said " DPS performance is based off of Job difficulty ". Players generally agree that to be BLM. Then why isn't BLM just top-dog of everything? Fight-Designs and players requiring to channel teamwork to allow BLM positioning for maximum DPS output out of the BLM. This is why BLM has the largest variance out of any DPS Job in performance.

Perhaps Square uses different metrics to constitute what a difficult DPS Job is compared to us Players. If Square based Job difficulty off of...

• Melee uptime and positionals
• Highest APM(CPM)
• Rotation with most total Cast-Time
• Rotation with most amount of cast with Cast-Times
• Rotation with pressing the most amount of different buttons

Then the most difficult DPS Job isn't BLM it would be SAM. Although Square contradicts their metric statement with giving Samurai at least 7 simplifications, so this is a load of horse(beep!). Square's statements are often so contradicting, it's hard to take them serious.

Mastering difficulty of a Job should be rewarded. Unless they take away everything that made Jobs complex, then the only thing left to reward is that you paid your subscription. The only Job left that hasn't been smothered with overbearing simplifications is BLM. Perhaps were hung up to much on the numbers when Yoshi just wants you to experience different gameplay and having a BLM in the party does just that regardless of its performance. Who knows...

After-all it's not about what we think should be right about our Jobs, its what Square thinks what's right about their Jobs.

[Mikey_R]

There is a reason why I initially asked what DPS metric was being used in order to come to the point made in the OP and my suspicions were correct. Many people are using rDPS to measure the damage of selfish DPS. Now, whilst it might be a nice thing to use as an initial, quick way to compare the DPS of various jobs, it also has limitations that need to be accounted for and one of those limitations is that, for jobs that offer no raid buffs, it does not properly show how much damage that job is contributing to the fight as any extra damage the job puts in when under a damage buff, is given to another job to boost their damage. To highlight this, I will give an example.

Say you have your selfish DPS going 1000 dps, a second job doing 850 and they have a 10% damage buff they can give to the raid. First, we look at what happens when you measure the jobs aDPS when under the buff:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1100 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 935 DPS.

This is properly reflecting how much damage each job is contributing in a raw DPS metric, however, if we change the measure to rDPS, things change:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1000 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 1035 DPS.

In this scenario, it seems like the second DPS is the one contributing more, despite the fact it got an extra 100 dps for 'free' as it was Job 1 that put the damage into that buff.

So the question is, is it really fair to judge a selfish DPS based on only their rDPS when their strength lies in their aDPS? This is also why it is really hard to compare DPS jobs to each other when you have a selfish DPS in the mix as the buffers benefit more from rDPS, whereas the selfish benefit more from aDPS.

[Turtledeluxe]

There is a reason why I initially asked what DPS metric was being used in order to come to the point made in the OP and my suspicions were correct. Many people are using rDPS to measure the damage of selfish DPS. Now, whilst it might be a nice thing to use as an initial, quick way to compare the DPS of various jobs, it also has limitations that need to be accounted for and one of those limitations is that, for jobs that offer no raid buffs, it does not properly show how much damage that job is contributing to the fight as any extra damage the job puts in when under a damage buff, is given to another job to boost their damage. To highlight this, I will give an example.

Say you have your selfish DPS going 1000 dps, a second job doing 850 and they have a 10% damage buff they can give to the raid. First, we look at what happens when you measure the jobs aDPS when under the buff:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1100 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 935 DPS.

This is properly reflecting how much damage each job is contributing in a raw DPS metric, however, if we change the measure to rDPS, things change:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1000 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 1035 DPS.

In this scenario, it seems like the second DPS is the one contributing more, despite the fact it got an extra 100 dps for 'free' as it was Job 1 that put the damage into that buff.

So the question is, is it really fair to judge a selfish DPS based on only their rDPS when their strength lies in their aDPS? This is also why it is really hard to compare DPS jobs to each other when you have a selfish DPS in the mix as the buffers benefit more from rDPS, whereas the selfish benefit more from aDPS.

So I review the logs for TOP, which I assume is what is being used a reference in this case (keeping in mind I don't believe job design should solely be based on high level content). Even looking at BLM aDPS, what it's telling me is that BLM has to try very hard to be top dps, and even then, it isn't top dps quite comfortably. As to your question, I don't see how you can divorce all the metrics. It's also about player perceptions and how it feels to play the role in a group. As a BLM main I can tell you it feels like that graph, yes, with the semi high upside and decent capacity for downside. And the capacity for downside is all the more relevant because BLM doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.

Overall the data for TOP just shows what has been said by the original post-- Summoner is absolutely crushing BLM because being seen as viable and/or essential isn't just about DPS in isolation. It's about damage, ultility, and mobility in raids. If BLM is going to focus on one or two of those it needs to them extremely well pretty easily. It's easy to have utility or even mobility-- you just have a bufff, spell or action.

[Mikey_R]

So I review the logs for TOP, which I assume is what is being used a reference in this case (keeping in mind I don't believe job design should solely be based on high level content).

Both ultimate fights, current savage tier (all fights) and most recent extreme trial as that is the only content that FFlogs breaks down into rDPS/aDPS/nDPS.

Even looking at BLM aDPS, what it's telling me is that BLM has to try very hard to be top dps, and even then, it isn't top dps quite comfortably.

I never said it had to be top, just that only basing DPS off of one metric as opposed to taking all aspects into account means you will miss things that would otherwise show with a more appropriate measure, which I have also stated is difficult because of the nature of the DPS role as a whole.

As to your question, I don't see how you can divorce all the metrics.

I never said you had to divorce all metrics, I just said you had to be careful when comparing DPS metrics.

It's also about player perceptions and how it feels to play the role in a group. As a BLM main I can tell you it feels like that graph, yes, with the semi high upside and decent capacity for downside. And the capacity for downside is all the more relevant because BLM doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.

How a player feels when playing the job has no impact on the DPS metric and so is not relevant to the discussion of whether BLM should get a DPS boost or not.

Overall the data for TOP just shows what has been said by the original post-- Summoner is absolutely crushing BLM because being seen as viable and/or essential isn't just about DPS in isolation. It's about damage, ultility, and mobility in raids. If BLM is going to focus on one or two of those it needs to them extremely well pretty easily. It's easy to have utility or even mobility-- you just have a bufff, spell or action.

Yes, a job having utility can make it a viable option over another, I never disputed that. All my post was saying was to be careful when comparing DPS values between jobs as there is an inherent bias towards one job or another based on whether you use rDPS or aDPS as a measure.

[Turtledeluxe]

I never said you had to divorce all metrics, I just said you had to be careful when comparing DPS metrics.

What's the point of stating this when it's obvious that someone should consider things carefully before saying them?

How a player feels when playing the job has no impact on the DPS metric and so is not relevant to the discussion of whether BLM should get a DPS boost or not.

You are confused. It matters how players feel about the class, whether they are the class or not. And BLM looks and feels redundant given that it does good damage under very specific conditions and depending on player expertise. That's why the thread exists, and you cannot form an answer to it except "well aDPS..."

Yes, a job having utility can make it a viable option over another, I never disputed that.

Exactly.