how did we at a place where diablo4 is more of an mmo that FF14?

[Jojoya]

If it's not an MMO then XIV isn't an MMO. Shit it even does a better job of being a Single/Multiplayer RPG too.

Blizzard is marketing it as a multiplayer ARPG, not as a massively multiplayer ARPG. So it is not a MMO. They definitely would be marketing as a MMO if it qualifies as one. Diablo fans have been asking for a Diablo MMO for a very long time.

Giving players an option to play solo does not stop a MMO from being a MMO. Massive doesn't mean everyone in the same location at the same time, just that they're online on the same server at the same time.

XIV is regressing in it's 'MMO' qualities, while other games are starting to outpace it this decade. Does that mean XIV is now just an MORPG?

It's not regressing as a MMO. It's giving players options on how to play. It's up to the individual player to decide whether they want to do content with other players or solo.

We can stretch this thing any which way we want, in and around loops of bullshit. But in this day and age, if we hadn't known Diablo 1-3 to be just an Online ARPG, and the game we know as D4 released today as Diablo 1 - It'd be considered an MMO-ARPG.

You say it yourself. It's easy for players to stretch things for either game any way they want. Yet the industry has standards to meet, and game developers are going to use those standards to market their games.

I'm going to trust Blizzard's judgment about what type of game they made is over yours. I can't argue with your feeling but you feeling that way doesn't make it fact.

But... with AAA game launches over the past few years the first few months are usually the most fun because of all the Lulz resulting from bugs and glitches they failed to find... :P

Beta testing is even better. I can still remember early on in the Mists of Pandaria beta when Holy Nova was not affected by the GCD.

[R041]

Blizzard is marketing it as a multiplayer ARPG, not as a massively multiplayer ARPG. So it is not a MMO. They definitely would be marketing as a MMO if it qualifies as one. Diablo fans have been asking for a Diablo MMO for a very long time.

Giving players an option to play solo does not stop a MMO from being a MMO. Massive doesn't mean everyone in the same location at the same time, just that they're online on the same server at the same time.

Jojo, you should just play it and come back and tell me. The general discussion around what makes an MMO, is overall interesting - When we talk about Lobby type games, it's always been debated that the only reason they're not an MMO is because they don't have a persistent world with 'natural' player introductions. At least that's why people said Diablo, PoE, Guild Wars, PSO/2, DDO, Warframe weren't MMO?
Well D4 is an always online persistent world now. So the goalpost has to be moved then right?

I think Blizzard has a much higher standard of what an MMO is compared to other companies. But they're using the WoW tech for Diablo, and it sure as fuck feels like an MMO compared to 99% of all MMOs out there, even MORESO than some.

In Diablo 4, you're basically running through large WoW zones but they're non-linear. Really the only difference between WoW and Diablo 4 at this point is WoW can actually manage to have 100+ players on the same screen for events. Where most 'MMOs' just fail to want to do this, even XIV avoids this at all cost now. Probably because for every player you see in a group, the bandwidth requirements are increased exponentially.

Even WoW and XIV have max player count and will create new zone instances when they're hit. So I wanna know where the goalpost sits now.




Here's 1 of the 5 Regions in D4. I split up the zones to the best of my ability. Some of these have even smaller server zone/bounds that aren't super visible to me.
(You can tell it's a server line when you rubber band sometimes on a bridge or in a tunnel)

Each one of these zones holds up to 12 players. So the biggest difference is that with a WoW / XIV zone, they hold about 100 players before they need to instance the zone again - They also use a much wider area. Where D4 holds 12 in smaller areas. So it's more encapsulated. Otherwise it's roughly the same, and the instances and zones are seamless. It's just a different zone/instance structure. Honestly prefer this, because then you don't have 100 players in town dancing and emoting forever like Limsa.

And you don't pick a server, you all just exist in the massive cluster. So all of NA.

[Jojoya]

Jojo, you should just play it and come back and tell me. The general discussion around what makes an MMO, is overall interesting - When we talk about Lobby type games, it's always been debated that the only reason they're not an MMO is because they don't have a persistent world with 'natural' player introductions. At least that's why people said Diablo, PoE, Guild Wars, PSO/2, DDO, Warframe weren't MMO?
Well D4 is an always online persistent world now. So the goalpost has to be moved then right?

I think Blizzard has a much higher standard of what an MMO is compared to other companies. But they're using the WoW tech for Diablo, and it sure as fuck feels like an MMO compared to 99% of all MMOs out there, even MORESO than some.

In Diablo 4, you're basically running through large WoW zones but they're non-linear. Really the only difference between WoW and Diablo 4 at this point is WoW can actually manage to have 100+ players on the same screen for events. Where most 'MMOs' just fail to want to do this, even XIV avoids this at all cost now. Probably because for every player you see in a group, the bandwidth requirements are increased exponentially.

Even WoW and XIV have max player count and will create new zone instances when they're hit. So I wanna know where the goalpost sits now.




Here's 1 of the 5 Regions in D4. I split up the zones to the best of my ability. Some of these have even smaller server zone/bounds that aren't super visible to me.
(You can tell it's a server line when you rubber band sometimes on a bridge or in a tunnel)

Each one of these zones holds up to 12 players. So the biggest difference is that with a WoW / XIV zone, they hold about 100 players before they need to instance the zone again - They also use a much wider area. Where D4 holds 12 in smaller areas. So it's more encapsulated. Otherwise it's roughly the same, and the instances and zones are seamless. It's just a different zone/instance structure. Honestly prefer this, because then you don't have 100 players in town dancing and emoting forever like Limsa.

And you don't pick a server, you all just exist in the massive cluster. So all of NA.

None of that convinces me it's a MMO.

Ever been on a hunt train with over 300 players in the same zone? I've conducted them (and hated almost every minute of it if I was being honest, I stick to conducting off peak hours on non-reset days now). We know the zones can hold more than that. We saw close to 500 players showing up for Chi FATEs when the expansion first came out.

Will the D4 zones expand to hold 500 players if a world boss is spawned or will they still be limited to 12 or even the 100 allowed in a region?

How would the FFXIV cities feel if there were only 12 players allowed into the same instance instead of several hundred?


You're proving the point that it's a multiplayer game, not a MMO. I understand that you're currently finding it more engaging than FFXIV but we're getting into design difference.

It sounds like you want an open world zone where you're constantly killing things. FFXIV has designed its open world zones around more focused activities that would be more difficult if the zones were packed with hostile mobs. It's a theme park with a lot of different rides. D4 is simply a killing field with the occasional commander pointing out where you need to kill next.

Trust me, I want you to find a game that you truly enjoy and are happy playing. I want the same for all players here, even the ones I frequently disagree with. That's why I'm always encouraging them to find other games to be playing when they can't do anything but complain about this one. It's not to get rid of them. It's to help them get a more positive gaming experience, and perhaps even return here with new ideas that would fit into a theme park MMORPG.

There comes a point when someone who is unhappy with the state of the game has to acknowledge that FFXIV may not be the right game for them, and that maybe the MMORPG genre in general is not the right genre for what they want. Our preferences do change over time. As an example, I used to also play a ton of Command & Conquer and Starcraft. I don't anymore. RTS is no longer a genre that interests me and the point has been driven home the few times I've tried to dust Starcraft off.

As for me playing D4, I already said I might use some of my dusty Battle.net Balance after it's been released. Even if it's not real money to me, I don't want spend it unless I'm fairly certain it's a game I have a good chance of enjoying. The original Diablo was a blast but I couldn't get into D2 and D3 was okay but then I got it for free during that one WoW promotion. I probably would have been even less impressed if I had to pay for it. I'm not one to jump on hype trains for games not yet or newly released so I'll wait for my friends that do before I commit. Maybe I've lost my interest in ARPGs just as I have RTS.

In the meantime, enjoy your adventures in Sanctuary. I wish you fortune and success. I'll be here playing the game that I still enjoy.

[R041]

...

You kinda started babbling off near the end.. Put your feelings aside for a minute. I'm not debating whether D4 is more enjoyable, because that's subjective. You kinda went on some weird rant about my personal likes and dislikes. You don't even know why I still play XIV. lol

It's an interesting conversation of what makes an MMO. And to be honest, a hunt train doesn't cut it when 95% of the rest of the game is single player. This discussion is around how D4 feels like more of an MMO consistently.

You're also exaggerating. Where's this 500 coming from? We're lucky to ever have 500 on the whole server.

Is the goalpost that each zone must have over 100 players to be considered an MMO? What size of zone? Do they all need to be standing 1 square away from each other? Is it just the game even having the capability of 100 players being able to stand next to each other? Because D4 can definitely do that. Any online game can, you lower the tick rate and disable complex computing actions. Like most games with large lobbies do.

You can't answer that, because it's not that simple. Most MMOs don't have 100 players sitting in 1 spot. And if you knew the infra, players are in their own pockets until they meet someone or something. The world isn't just engaged 24/7, your packets don't interact with Bob 10 miles down the road. It's only when it's on your screen.

So with your criteria, with all of these systems - The only thing that would make D4 an MMO, is if it had 1 single zone that held 100 players. But the rest of the game were Single Player. You see how much of a joke that criteria is?

Because that's XIV. lol

Also if you want to gate it at 100+ capable in 1 zone, no matter the zone, as long as 100 players can sit around together. Then most MMOs don't fit that criteria.

[Jojoya]

You don't even know why I still play XIV. lol

You've told us in recent posts that you don't really play anymore. You just keep subscribing because you have a house you don't want to lose.

Is there more to why you're still subscribed than that?

And to be honest, a hunt train doesn't cut it when 95% of the rest of the game is single player.

Which is again incorrect.

Raids are not single player.

Dungeons are not single player.

The most popular treasure maps are not single player.

FATEs are not intended to be single player.

PvP is not single player.

Even MSQ isn't restricted to single player outside of the solo duties that are a relatively small part of the overall content in the MSQ.

Stop confusing "can be done solo if desired" with "single player". They are not the same thing. Single player games mean exactly that - you are the only player present.

Have you even tried to play this game with others? It's lots of fun when you find the right people with compatible personalities and interests.

If most MMOs don't allow for 100 players to be in the same area, then it sounds like they are drifting away from being MMOs. I wouldn't set 500 as a benchmark for what moves from multiplayer to massively multiplayer but there's also no way I would consider only a dozen massively multiplayer. I had friends who wired their houses for LANs that would handle 6-8 computers for gaming way back in the late 80s and early 90s. They weren't that many games back then that could handle multiplayer but they did it for the few that could.

It's ironic that you tell me I should put aside my feelings when your own claims are solely based on your feelings. So, again tell us why you feel that Diablo IV is more of a MMO than MMOs are. So far you've talked about the map sections and population yet nothing you have said makes it sound like Massively multi-player instead of just multi-player.

So, what makes you think of massive when in a zone with eleven other players when being in Limsa with 200+ players doesn't?

Having just started playing the open beta, there is alot I like about D4 at the moment. Mostly its atmosphereand the fact I can be a big buff Barbarian lady (SE, take notes for the graphical redesign for FemRos!) but the 'MMO' aspect I feel are by far its weakest points. Not just because I have been kicked off the server three times and had to wait an hour to get back in... but that did not help haha.

Only having to wait an hour to get back in isn't that bad for an open beta. Sounds like they set up a few extra servers for the load.

[Stormpeaks]

You've told us in recent posts that you don't really play anymore. You just keep subscribing because you have a house you don't want to lose.

Is there more to why you're still subscribed than that?


Which is again incorrect.

Raids are not single player.

Dungeons are not single player.

The most popular treasure maps are not single player.

FATEs are not intended to be single player.

PvP is not single player.

Even MSQ isn't restricted to single player outside of the solo duties that are a relatively small part of the overall content in the MSQ.

Stop confusing "can be done solo if desired" with "single player". They are not the same thing. Single player games mean exactly that - you are the only player present.

Have you even tried to play this game with others? It's lots of fun when you find the right people with compatible personalities and interests.

If most MMOs don't allow for 100 players to be in the same area, then it sounds like they are drifting away from being MMOs. I wouldn't set 500 as a benchmark for what moves from multiplayer to massively multiplayer but there's also no way I would consider only a dozen massively multiplayer. I had friends who wired their houses for LANs that would handle 6-8 computers for gaming way back in the late 80s and early 90s. They weren't that many games back then that could handle multiplayer but they did it for the few that could.

It's ironic that you tell me I should put aside my feelings when your own claims are solely based on your feelings. So, again tell us why you feel that Diablo IV is more of a MMO than MMOs are. So far you've talked about the map sections and population yet nothing you have said makes it sound like Massively multi-player instead of just multi-player.

So, what makes you think of massive when in a zone with eleven other players when being in Limsa with 200+ players doesn't?



Only having to wait an hour to get back in isn't that bad for an open beta. Sounds like they set up a few extra servers for the load.

I assume you mean the glorified trials ? They have to be done in a small party, yes. With the exception of alliance raid which really is the only content that has to be done in a big party, an actual RAID party.

Dungeons can literally be solo'd at this point if you're a tank, there is no need for a party anymore.

Treasure maps are very... niche.

Fates can be done easily in single player.

PvP might as well be singleplayer, at least CC, you cant even talk to your teammates, even in ranked, for what reason ? God knows

MSQ is literally singleplayer, there are very few bits in which you need a party, and that's it, it's all queueable, there is no need to socialize or anything, it's literally just a queue.

[Shinkuno]

Only having to wait an hour to get back in isn't that bad for an open beta. Sounds like they set up a few extra servers for the load.

i logged in ~3 hours ago and didnt even have a queue, on a saturday in the middle of the day on EU

[R041]

Have you even tried to play this game with others? It's lots of fun when you find the right people with compatible personalities and interests.

If most MMOs don't allow for 100 players to be in the same area, then it sounds like they are drifting away from being MMOs. I wouldn't set 500 as a benchmark for what moves from multiplayer to massively multiplayer but there's also no way I would consider only a dozen massively multiplayer. I had friends who wired their houses for LANs that would handle 6-8 computers for gaming way back in the late 80s and early 90s. They weren't that many games back then that could handle multiplayer but they did it for the few that could.

It's ironic that you tell me I should put aside my feelings when your own claims are solely based on your feelings. So, again tell us why you feel that Diablo IV is more of a MMO than MMOs are. So far you've talked about the map sections and population yet nothing you have said makes it sound like Massively multi-player instead of just multi-player.

So, what makes you think of massive when in a zone with eleven other players when being in Limsa with 200+ players doesn't?

Only having to wait an hour to get back in isn't that bad for an open beta. Sounds like they set up a few extra servers for the load.

You're right, most MMOs have drifted away from being 'MMO'. That's my point. ARR was more of an MMO than Endwalker. The tech is still there, but they don't use it, we get less and less open world opportunities every expansion.

I said put aside your feelings for me. Because you're being weird and trying to pick me apart for some reason. I'm not attacking you, or looking into what you say, or how you say things. I don't care. I don't know you. I don't care to know you.

I hate responding to you, so I don't know why I'm doing it. Everything we're discussing is basically subjective. I don't expect someone that always disagrees with me, to all of a sudden start agreeing on anything I say. You're mostly combative and super passive aggressive.


___________________________________________________________________

I do play with other players often in XIV - But it really tries it's best to make sure that doesn't happen with how single-player forced the MSQ is. So if you're not in a raid group, then basically your FC hops on for a few days every major patch then 1 by 1 stop logging in after a week because there's nothing to really do together.

It's also not necessarily that XIV is more Single Player - It's that most of the game is small form instances OR Single Player. You don't get many opportunities for the MMO to naturally occur with players doing typical XIV gameplay, because it's designed in such a linear way. It's not like back in the day with SWG when a random large guild war occurs, large events in WoW, or literally all of Planetside. There aren't many MMO opportunities, because everything's such a forced linear or isolated experience. XIV has the capability, but neglects to use it most of the time. Hell, XIV barely even has reasons to stay logged in after you finish MSQ, so there goes the MMO part. It's why people love Eureka and Bozja. XIV basically forces you to search for these opportunities, and doesn't even provide many.

MMO Activities for XIV:

1. FATEs (Nobody coop unless it's a special one)
2. Hunts (Mindless spam)
3. AFK in Limsa (AOL Chatroom)
4. ERP Clubs (Uuuhh.. Dark part of AOL)

So when I play something like Diablo 4, where the open and non-linear world encourages natural multiplayer interaction as much as possible, it feels more like an MMO than most out today that often force instances for everything.

Here's an example, Dungeons and Dragons Online is considered an MMO, but it's largely instance based as well. The only time you really see large groups of players is in the 'lobby'. Same with PSO2.

But with Diablo 4, you don't have that massive lobby to fake it being an MMO, and instead it's all natural multiplayer everywhere. You can go do a dungeon and solo, but it almost makes no difference to you just running around outside and finding friends. It's almost the inverse of what DDO and PSO2 are. Where the 'lobby' is small, but the world is fully open and seamless.

So D4 gives me that same feeling as the older MMOs did where they only had 1 instance per zone. Stuff like SWG, UO, EQ, RO.. Where the natural friendships were by doing the content casually and just bumping into them, or something natural or random in the world happens to pull a lot of players in.

Even with 12 players max per 'zone', yeah I don't get a huge Limsa - But it's very natural with the random interactions and party creation. Running around doing an event in open world and 3 other people join you, then they invite you to party to do the dungeon next to it. That doesn't happen in XIV..

[magitekLuna]

None of that convinces me it's a MMO.

Ever been on a hunt train with over 300 players in the same zone? I've conducted them (and hated almost every minute of it if I was being honest, I stick to conducting off peak hours on non-reset days now). We know the zones can hold more than that. We saw close to 500 players showing up for Chi FATEs when the expansion first came out.

Will the D4 zones expand to hold 500 players if a world boss is spawned or will they still be limited to 12 or even the 100 allowed in a region?

How would the FFXIV cities feel if there were only 12 players allowed into the same instance instead of several hundred?


You're proving the point that it's a multiplayer game, not a MMO. I understand that you're currently finding it more engaging than FFXIV but we're getting into design difference.

It sounds like you want an open world zone where you're constantly killing things. FFXIV has designed its open world zones around more focused activities that would be more difficult if the zones were packed with hostile mobs. It's a theme park with a lot of different rides. D4 is simply a killing field with the occasional commander pointing out where you need to kill next.

Trust me, I want you to find a game that you truly enjoy and are happy playing. I want the same for all players here, even the ones I frequently disagree with. That's why I'm always encouraging them to find other games to be playing when they can't do anything but complain about this one. It's not to get rid of them. It's to help them get a more positive gaming experience, and perhaps even return here with new ideas that would fit into a theme park MMORPG.

There comes a point when someone who is unhappy with the state of the game has to acknowledge that FFXIV may not be the right game for them, and that maybe the MMORPG genre in general is not the right genre for what they want. Our preferences do change over time. As an example, I used to also play a ton of Command & Conquer and Starcraft. I don't anymore. RTS is no longer a genre that interests me and the point has been driven home the few times I've tried to dust Starcraft off.

As for me playing D4, I already said I might use some of my dusty Battle.net Balance after it's been released. Even if it's not real money to me, I don't want spend it unless I'm fairly certain it's a game I have a good chance of enjoying. The original Diablo was a blast but I couldn't get into D2 and D3 was okay but then I got it for free during that one WoW promotion. I probably would have been even less impressed if I had to pay for it. I'm not one to jump on hype trains for games not yet or newly released so I'll wait for my friends that do before I commit. Maybe I've lost my interest in ARPGs just as I have RTS.

In the meantime, enjoy your adventures in Sanctuary. I wish you fortune and success. I'll be here playing the game that I still enjoy.

Jojoya its an MMO.