Easier? Dancer vs Summoner Debate

[Risvertasashi]

Beg your pardon? DNC, no need to rearrange, completely static rotation? No procs, no rng?

And even while I'd agree with MCH with the theoretically completely static rotation, you'll still have to rearrange depending on downtime, which is NOT the case for 6.0 SMN.

Please read more carefully. I was talking about MCH's rotation being static, not DNC.

DNC is simple, though it is proc based but still much easier to optimize than, say, BRD. But DNC also has no cast times and no melee attacks, making it easier - especially in raid situations and for new players. No need to plan around boss mechanics. In this MCH and DNC are the same so it's... do you want to push procs, or do you want a completely static sequence of buttons? MCH offers the latter for those that want something easily accomplished through pure rote/muscle memory. DNC's procs are not challenging in the slightest, but it does require some brain engagement - just not for movement and melee planning, because DNC still has none of that.

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But, as I said. I understand most of these people can't be reasoned with. They want to hate on SMN and the main way to do so is to declare to everyone that it's the easiest job. It's just a bit harmful to new players, to recommend something with movement restrictions (especially while leveling) to people wanting a more casual experience.

[Ggwppino]

But, as I said. I understand most of these people can't be reasoned with. They want to hate on SMN and the main way to do so is to declare to everyone that it's the easiest job. It's just a bit harmful to new players, to recommend something with movement restrictions (especially while leveling) to people wanting a more casual experience.

You are right but for the simple fact that before 70 smn is a caster.
But I think the post was born taking into consideration that the two jobs were 90, also because the dnc cannot be played by someone who starts playing.
Furthermore, the post was born by making assumptions that are no longer true: the smn no longer has to manage the pet, the smn no longer has to manage the mana (except if he dies or if he has to ress more people), the smn no longer has to manage consistently casts, the smn no longer has to manage anything.

[Valence]

Please read more carefully. I was talking about MCH's rotation being static, not DNC.

DNC is simple, though it is proc based but still much easier to optimize than, say, BRD. But DNC also has no cast times and no melee attacks, making it easier - especially in raid situations and for new players. No need to plan around boss mechanics. In this MCH and DNC are the same so it's... do you want to push procs, or do you want a completely static sequence of buttons? MCH offers the latter for those that want something easily accomplished through pure rote/muscle memory. DNC's procs are not challenging in the slightest, but it does require some brain engagement - just not for movement and melee planning, because DNC still has none of that.

--

But, as I said. I understand most of these people can't be reasoned with. They want to hate on SMN and the main way to do so is to declare to everyone that it's the easiest job. It's just a bit harmful to new players, to recommend something with movement restrictions (especially while leveling) to people wanting a more casual experience.

I am re-reading carefully, and while this is not my native language, I have a hard time seeing how obviously the "aside from DNC" necessarily swings more in an "as opposed to" way than in an "next to" way, the latter being the one I understood from context. Apologies if it was the other.

Still having problems understanding how the couple of cast times are even a problem (especially with swiftcast), more than iajutsu is supposedly a problem on Samurai tbh. Because the cast time is longer, even though there is a lot less of them? Okay.

I do believe a better metric rather than just "difficulty" would be intricacies and rotational depth, which it has none, where DNC still retains at least a little.

[Shiroe]

problem solved after the second attempt.

untill, you either realise, it makes a mechanic later down the line not add up with your movement.., or a new RNG mechanic bites you

[Shiroe]

on normal / easy content, Smn really is braindead ..,but that changes in hard content, shuffling primals & skills, holding out burst, using SC etc.

[Renathras]

on normal / easy content, Smn really is braindead ..,but that changes in hard content, shuffling primals & skills, holding out burst, using SC etc.

Funny thing is, this is true on most Jobs. No one needs a Savage opener, reopener, and optimal play to run...Crystal Tower.

[Ggwppino]

on normal / easy content, Smn really is braindead ..,but that changes in hard content, shuffling primals & skills, holding out burst, using SC etc.

in hard content it's even easier! In casual the smn could be interesting because you have people who don't do a certain amount of damage or the bosses aren't walking timers. In high-level content you know perfectly well that at minute x does this mechanic, there is no boss that does not have this feature. While it might vary (think p8s p1 dog-snake) the mechanic is so slow and well-named that it gives you a chance to even make yourself coffee before the mechanic actually starts.
the problem that the smn has, the DNC also has, furthermore the DNC, if the buffs have to be postponed, must think 4 gcd before to be able to drop its buff perfectly (because unlike the smn, which has an instantaneous buff that lasts half a minute, the dnc must first perform all the technical steps to have a technical finish).

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Dancer is inherently more mechanically complex than Summoner. You have greater responsibilities with Devilment, Curing Waltz, the interrupt and making sure to not drift the steps.

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

We can also ask, which would you prefer: a 25% bottom percentile Summoner or a 25% bottom percentile Dancer?

[Ggwppino]

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

I think this concept is quite ungenerous. The fact that the combo can be done with a single button is due to the sole fact that it is a rotation without a proc. If a class doesn't have procs, then it can hypothetically have one-button rotation, whatever class it is. hypothetically a drg could also have one-button rotation, but it still has a respectable and highly optimizable rotation. (currently, because SQE could make another victim)

[Shiroe]

Dancer is inherently more mechanically complex than Summoner. You have greater responsibilities with Devilment, Curing Waltz, the interrupt and making sure to not drift the steps.

On the other hand, summoner can be reduced to a single button macro and still parse purple. https://youtu.be/BId-R_GKsNc

We can also ask, which would you prefer: a 25% bottom percentile Summoner or a 25% bottom percentile Dancer?

take any non proc class, throw in a macro at the start of a reset, and youll get a gud parse on easy content (that was normal mode, not savage..)