Easier? Dancer vs Summoner Debate

[Shiroe]

take any non proc class, throw in a macro at the start of a reset, and youll get a gud parse on easy content (that was normal mode, not savage..)

*start of reset (logs reset)..
... that said, macros might be more consistent at pressing buttons than players lol.., still doubt trying this not on a "logs reset" with OP gear, will bring the same conclusion

[ForsakenRoe]

I think this concept is quite ungenerous. The fact that the combo can be done with a single button is due to the sole fact that it is a rotation without a proc. If a class doesn't have procs, then it can hypothetically have one-button rotation, whatever class it is. hypothetically a drg could also have one-button rotation, but it still has a respectable and highly optimizable rotation. (currently, because SQE could make another victim)

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

[NullPointerException]

In normal/easy content, any class is braindead. There is no damage requirement and you can just stay on the floor and nobody will bet an eye. You easily outperform most of duty finder by just staying alive and pressing some button.

In hard content? You know exactly when something shows up. Most classes have more to worry about than SMN. MNK maintaining optimal drift, SAM casting more things than SMN has to as melee, BLM turreting, MCH trying to put on carpal tunnel gloves. You get to keep your gems after death and get your burst ready at the 60s mark again anyways, but RDM loses their 2 minutes of gauge setup and will never be able to recover. You can figure out the entire P8S timeline in 2 pulls, assuming you know the fight. "finishing Garuda early to rush primal summon casts before phase change" is not a deep optimization, since adapting to timelines exist for literally every other class.

You use swiftcast on CD for damage, or save it for raise. What's the skill in 1 button that exists to make your life easier? When, in this tier, does a SMN actually hold out burst?

[Ggwppino]

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

Actually the video show the single button combo with the game macro system (so with delay caused by not optimal use of queue system). With a 3rd party tools i think it possibile also attack without press any button for each class
Anyway, I dont want to say that smn is difficult (you can read my first post, second post in this thread), i mean that I don't find the observation of the single button combo correct, because it is a concept that can very well be attributed to any other no proc class, even much more operationally complex than the smn

[Valence]

If you could have any number of lines (instead of 15 as we're limited to), ie we're using a 3rd party macro writing software, you absolutely could have a macro that autoplays DNC for most of it's gameplay. Just throw a line saying /ac Bloodshower and /ac Fountainfall before every non-proc GCD to force it to 'try' to spend the procs, and if they aren't available it'll skip over them. The only part the macro couldn't do is the dances, since they're complete RNG, you'd have to do every step four times to make sure Tech was fully powered up (16 steps instead of 4 if you're a human and playing the game normally)

BRD though, 100% you could macro that because even if it procs, it's always the same reaction you take as a player: use bloodletter to not cap, use Pitch Perfect when you get it. Thinking about it I reckon the only class where you couldn't macro it to a high degree of efficiency like a TAS (using infinite-length macro software) would be DNC because of it's dances. Everything else would be pretty simple to make a TAS of. Even RDM, I think, now that you have to be actually trying to get imbalanced mana

A DNC macro wouldn't be able to spool up feather procs into burst phases, as well as knowing when to use Sabre Dance/gauge. A DNC macro wouldn't be able to deal with the little priority the job still has remaining during its burst (notably when to dance, or when to delay dances and how to manage gauge overcap).

A BRD macro wouldn't be able to deal with Pitch Perfect optimization, and even more so than DNC, would be totally left dumbfounded with every burst priority system. It would also be totally unable to deal with Apex use.

I don't know what is TAS though, is this third party software?

[SieyaM]

it has been more than a year now that the smn no longer has to manage the pet and it has practically no longer had a cast for two years (now every minute the smn at 90 has only 7 seconds of cast, the same as a sam). The rotation of the dnc isn't operationally intricate but it offers margins for optimizations, margins that the smn doesn't have because you just have to press all the buttons when they light up, also disregarding CDs that are all one-minute long

I'm a little late to this but SMN hasn't had pet management way longer than that. Ever since they became invincible there hasn't been management with them, they were simply things that the you used skills through by proxy, with some janky lag.

[NullPointerException]

It's because your take is blatantly ridiculous. Why is any movement restriction immediately bad for new players? SMN's core rotation barely changes after they get all their gem summons at around 50. Every button you get is mandatory for you to press before you move to the next summon. The existence of movement restrictions, whether range or cast time, applies to the majority of classes and does NOT make SMN unique. Most of the movement restrictions on new SMN have been removed anyways compared to ShB (which was also NOT hard at all to learn). If you want to play CASTER, you better learn how CASTING works!

This game already does not leave any difficulty for casual players, you can press a single button the whole time, sit on the floor, be dead, whatever. There is no DPS check until savage. You are not even required to learn your class to basic competency until maybe extremes. If you crave a "casual experience" you can just auto-attack, people can't flame you anyways per ToS. SMN has 4 hard-casted spells every minute, and with swiftcast you can make that 3. People want to hate on SMN because actually does not have enough casts to even deserve to be called a caster, let alone outperform red mage in high-end raids.

[Ggwppino]

I'm a little late to this but SMN hasn't had pet management way longer than that. Ever since they became invincible there hasn't been management with them, they were simply things that the you used skills through by proxy, with some janky lag.

You are right, i meant when sc was removed from the pet (for good cause), sqe definitively removed the management of the pet. SC was an excuse to move the pet to a strategic position during the general rotation that the smn has. Personally I sincerely hope that the Devs and designers have really understood why it was necessary in this expansion to remove SC from the carbuncle and are working on it. (sc's problem is not because it was on the pet, but because the pet keeps disappearing)

[Renascent]

Smn is easier and it's not even close.

[AmiRose]

Both are incredibly easy

SMN literally has no real rotation and is ridiculously straightforward. At most you need to weave a skill and plan around your ifrit mode due to longer cast-times/melee skills and garudas slipstream. Which is nothing compared to most classes.

DNC also has no real rotation and may have RNG but that is no solid reason to call them more difficult. A skill lightens up? Great, use it! Skill doesn't light up? Just press the one you just used. Oh you capped your feathers? Use one! Your gauge is getting full? Use a saber dance.

The only reason one could argue DNC might be more "difficult" than SMN is cause it needs to press 5 more buttons in the opener/burst window compared to SMN but that is a joke of a reason to say it has more complexity - if anything I'd say planning SMN ifrit mode correctly is harder but considering that mode has only 2 buttons to press, I still laugh if anyone tries to make me believe that holds complexity as well.

Both classes do nothing but pressing the same 1-4 buttons until the next burst and have high movement. Fun classes though, but doesn't take much skill to play.