MSQ Capstone Fights - iLvl requirement set too high & fights skip content as a result

[Boblawblah]

I understand that this is an mmo, but the participation trophy mindset of the devs needs to stop.

I think it's less "participation trophy mindset" and more "keep the majority of our players (the casuals) happy and paying".

[Melorie]

I think it's less "participation trophy mindset" and more "keep the majority of our players (the casuals) happy and paying".

They already MAKE that content with casuals players in mind. The content is clearly released with this intention. It doesn't need to get any easier.

Besides, there's an abyss between being casual and "wanting the boss to melt without even getting to say their lines". A casual person is not someone that dislikes even trying to play the game or wiping, it is just someone without time or patience to try savage.

[Gemina]

I think it's less "participation trophy mindset" and more "keep the majority of our players (the casuals) happy and paying".

That's essentially what it is. The idea behind participation trophies is to boost self-esteem. What it really does is reward a person for a subpar performance. In FFXIV this manifests in several ways. You can have mechanics that do not punish the player for failing them, battles that end too quickly, of clears given even if the player stands there and does nothing the entire fight.

Among the casuals this mindset also alienates the players who enjoy doing the mechanics instead of being able to 'drinking bird' their way through the whole encounter. The thing is, I also don't fault the devs entirely for this issue. I blame a lot of the players who would leave NM duties when the group wipes to the boss. This was very abundant back in 3.x, with vote abandons being initiated with losses to bosses like Diabolos Hollow, Cruise Chaser, and Nidhogg. The very same players who now complain about the content being too easy.

This still does not pardon the dev team from perpetuating the lesson that losing is a humbling experience. Content too difficult for casual players, and content that is faceroll easy are the extremes on opposite ends. Neither is healthy for the game or the playerbase short term or long term.

[TaleraRistain]

As someone who cleared Shinryu, Hades, and Endsinger in less than a week from launch, when everyone was still wearing their artifact gear and leveling accessories, they were never brick walls. They required paying attention, but they were never really a stopping point.

I'm gonna disagree here in Shinryu and it was because of gear. They locked the tome gear behind completing it. It definitely was a brick wall and it was only when those of us who cleared early were able to start getting our tome gear that it evened out. Still needed to pay attention but the runs weren't the wipefests they were before we had that gear. I intentionally ran that fight constantly as a healer to help people because it was such a PITA.

And they adjusted their design the next two expansions so we get better gear before the final fights. Hades and Endsinger weren't nearly the roadblocks Shinryu was. I really like what they did with Endwalker where the gear grows with you.

Doge mentioned capping ilevel to the patch it dropped. That may be a good compromise. Or maybe just a bit higher in case there is something else like Shinryu where that boost in ilevel is helpful but still maintains challenge.

I also agree with Joyoya that some of the issue may be with SE and their pacing and not assuring the fight can't be finished before things like the Scion dialogue finishes.

[Mikey_R]

1. I'm gonna disagree here in Shinryu and it was because of gear. They locked the tome gear behind completing it. It definitely was a brick wall and it was only when those of us who cleared early were able to start getting our tome gear that it evened out. Still needed to pay attention but the runs weren't the wipefests they were before we had that gear. I intentionally ran that fight constantly as a healer to help people because it was such a PITA.

Doge mentioned capping ilevel to the patch it dropped. That may be a good compromise. Or maybe just a bit higher in case there is something else like Shinryu where that boost in ilevel is helpful but still maintains challenge.

I also agree with Joyoya that some of the issue may be with SE and their pacing and not assuring the fight can't be finished before things like the Scion dialogue finishes.

1. Tome gear has always been locked behind the expansion story. However, you are mistaken if you believe the SB AF sets were on the tomes, they were not. They were given to you, for free, once you had completed the level 70 job quest (in the form of a coffer), which is also the place you get your level 70 action/trait. If you went into that fight without your AF gear available, it also meant you did not have your level 70 action. The ONLY expansion that had the AF gear locked behind tomes was Heavensward.

2. The fight pacing was not an issue on release, due to a lower ilevel. This was still the case in the earlier months of the expansion and it was only when more and more people started to get savage level gear that the end phase started becoming noticably shorter. This was only made worse once the ilevel cap was increased. The fight pacing is fine, if the ilevel matches it. Reduce the max ilevel, the fight pacing is better.

Also, on a note for Shinryu, the fight was never hard, you just had to pay attention, which some people are bad it.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Shinryu's biggest killer was, and often still is, that opening Tidal Wave. Because you have to actually look around to see where it's coming from, not just react to puddles. Get too caught up in your opener and you're probably gonna go flying.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Probably the hardest "final boss" of an expansion's launch was Shinryu, and even back at 4.0 launch he wasn't exactly impossible.

He is extremely beatable with the level 70 gear you got from doing your Job quests and level 68 accessory rewards from quests... But with effectively endgame gear for Stormblood it's kind of a joke.

[TaleraRistain]

1. Tome gear has always been locked behind the expansion story. However, you are mistaken if you believe the SB AF sets were on the tomes, they were not. They were given to you, for free, once you had completed the level 70 job quest (in the form of a coffer), which is also the place you get your level 70 action/trait. If you went into that fight without your AF gear available, it also meant you did not have your level 70 action. The ONLY expansion that had the AF gear locked behind tomes was Heavensward.

I didn't say anything about AF gear. It was going into Shinryu with AF gear that was difficult. Once you beat him and got access to the ilevel provided by tome gear, it started getting a lot easier to help others through it. There were a lot less abandons.

I also never said anything about the difficulty. I said it was a brick wall. In AF gear it was a lot less forgivable and when people didn't know mechs and got grazed by things it was tough on healers to keep things going. I saw tons of times people would just bail when they saw what they got.

[ForteNightshade]

I think it's less "participation trophy mindset" and more "keep the majority of our players (the casuals) happy and paying".

Casual doesn't necessarily mean braindead. People really need to stop conflating the two. I'd hazard a guess the majority of casual players want some degree of challenge, just at a palatable level rather then being given a reward for showing up. Case in point, for all the crying and moaning a vocal minority did about the likes of Weeping City, Final Steps of Faith and The Burn, none of them were ever nerfed. In fact, Shinryu got a Kotaku article regarding its supposed difficulty yet nothing was changed. The majority of the playerbase got through and weren't the ones complaining.

Unfortunately, the "participation trophy" crowd is still sizable and the devs have seemingly decided to cater directly towards them since Shadowbringers.

[Iyrnthota]

Casual doesn't necessarily mean braindead. People really need to stop conflating the two. I'd hazard a guess the majority of casual players want some degree of challenge, just at a palatable level rather then being given a reward for showing up. Case in point, for all the crying and moaning a vocal minority did about the likes of Weeping City, Final Steps of Faith and The Burn, none of them were ever nerfed. In fact, Shinryu got a Kotaku article regarding its supposed difficulty yet nothing was changed. The majority of the playerbase got through and weren't the ones complaining.

Unfortunately, the "participation trophy" crowd is still sizable and the devs have seemingly decided to cater directly towards them since Shadowbringers.

Kind of on a similar note, giving it some thought, it's interesting to me how casual has become synonymous with "lower skilled".

I would consider myself pretty casual. I play a few hours a week, if I have a goal. Probably two or three a day on average immediately after patches. Yet I've cleared a couple of savage fights this expac, so I reckon I'm not horrible.

Conversely I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to find someone who puts in several hours a day throughout the patch cycle who still dies 12 times in the latest araid attempting to get their 20th glam piece.