Change SCH Dissipation

[Jamini]

But the question is: Is the opportunity cost for losing the fairy worth the resources gained?

I submit that it is not.

Say you use it on DPS like most people say you should. It's 300 potency for a complete loss of fairy healing for 30s. That is a single extra Broil every 2 min. You're not exactly contributing more to the fight than if you didn't press that button.

That'd be like saying to Sage: When you use Rhiozomata your Kardia is removed from the target and you can't use Physis for 30s and your Addersting generation is stopped.

Now, if Quickened Aetherflow was still around, that would be a different story but CBU3 removed it.

And you are wrong because it is worth it to use Dissipation on cooldown.

- Embrace: Cure Potency 180. Recast 3s (longer if you are moving at all). Total potency of 1800 over the course of dissipation.
- A single Cast of Sacred Soil: Cure Potency 100. Total potency of 500 per target over the course of a single cast. (2000 in light parties, 4000 in full parties)
- One cast of Excognition is 800 potency. This is a 200 potency gain for a third of your lost embraces. And because you can target the heals, it comes out ahead
- One cast of Lustrate is 600 potency. This means even if you burn all of your gained Aetherflow on Lustrates, it's still not a loss because you can direct the heals and don't need to worry about losing faerie casts from her moving.

Learning how to map out your faerie only abilities for 10 of 60 GCDs so you don't use them during your dissipation window is part of the actual skill expression and depth of the class. It is still shallow but let's not make healers any more brain-dead then they are.

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That'd be like saying to Sage: When you use Rhiozomata your Kardia is removed from the target and you can't use Physis for 30s and your Addersting generation is stopped.

Sage isn't scholar, even though sage was designed as the dark mirror of Scholar in play. Sage doesn't have the utility of Ruin II for movement. Sage doesn't get the ability to deploy a critical shield for half of someone's health to the entire party. Sage cannot place Kerachole with the same freedom Scholar can soil. (It was for this reason alone that we had to swap our Sage to the central position for Purgation. Because his regen wasn't quite hitting everyone if we put him on the edge like I was.). Sage cannot have Kardia remotely heal with a place commend (Very useful for any mechanic for clock spots.) Sage doesn't have a party reposition that Scholar has in Expedient.

Rhizomata isn't even a direct comparison to Dissipation. It's on a 90s coooldown and only grants a single stack of Addersgall! Sage gets fewer resources than Scholar does for healing, if only so slightly, and in return they have a simpler kit and slightly more reliable generation. This is good Scholar and Sage need to have things that make them play differently.

[ForsakenRoe]

Kera's technically better than Soil, IMO, since it's a buff applied to people, it isn't constrained by 'stand within this specific location'. Good for things where the team has to spread out kinda far, like you're not gonna get use out of Soil on Heavensfall Trio like you can with Kera, for example. Though on the flipside, you have to be more center to apply it, which isn't necessarily that much of an issue. Kardia's range is not the same as it's 'place Kardia on target' range, I'm pretty sure the healing can trigger as long as the Kardia'd target is within 100y, not the 30 of the Kardia cast. It definitely reaches across the entire arena. The downfall of Kardia is that if you can't hit the boss, you cant trigger the heal, but then you can just GCD heal since it's not losing you damage.

IDK why people compare Dissipation with Rhizo though. Rhizo's a scuffed Recitation. Both are 'Grants one use of stack spender', both are 90s CD, both are learned at level 74. Just that the way Recitation is implemented is better as it means a guaranteed crit, and it being 'next spender is free' means you don't risk overcap.

[Renathras]

And you are wrong because it is worth it to use Dissipation on cooldown.

- Embrace: Cure Potency 180. Recast 3s (longer if you are moving at all). Total potency of 1800 over the course of dissipation.
- A single Cast of Sacred Soil: Cure Potency 100. Total potency of 500 per target over the course of a single cast. (2000 in light parties, 4000 in full parties)
- One cast of Excognition is 800 potency. This is a 200 potency gain for a third of your lost embraces. And because you can target the heals, it comes out ahead
- One cast of Lustrate is 600 potency. This means even if you burn all of your gained Aetherflow on Lustrates, it's still not a loss because you can direct the heals and don't need to worry about losing faerie casts from her moving.

The thing is, we're not comparing AF abilities vs Embrace.

We're comparing AF abilities vs Embrace + Fey Illumination + Fey Blessing + Whispering Dawn + Aetherpact + Seraph + Seraphic Veil + Consolation x2

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As to the second: I meant to show how other Healers' big CDs don't lock them out of their own abilities on use. SCH is the only one that has this issue.

Kera's technically better than Soil, IMO, since it's a buff applied to people, it isn't constrained by 'stand within this specific location'.

While there is some truth to this, it goes both ways. Soil's radius is pretty huge now. So for things like light party stacks on either side of the boss, a Soil centered on the boss can allow party members to be spread to either side and still benefit from it. If the SGE can run to the center and pop Kara real quick, it can do the same thing, but if it can't for some reason (P5S light party splits late in the fight where you have to split into the N/E S/W (or whatever you're party's doing) pockets, SGE can't do that. Likewise for the light party stacks in Ex5, the SGE's Kara may not hit both light parties. SCH can also use Soil at a distance, so if there's some mechanic where SCH gets a marker or something and has to run off to Narnia while the rest of the party stacks, SCH can easily throw a Soil at them from a distance (and place Eos near them) while SGE can't.

I'm not sure I'd say either is better, more that each works in different situations.

IDK why people compare Dissipation with Rhizo though. Rhizo's a scuffed Recitation. Both are 'Grants one use of stack spender', both are 90s CD, both are learned at level 74. Just that the way Recitation is implemented is better as it means a guaranteed crit, and it being 'next spender is free' means you don't risk overcap.

Probably because there's not really anything comparable to Dissipation on any of the other healers, so it's hard to find anything that really compares well to it.

[Jamini]

The thing is, we're not comparing AF abilities vs Embrace.

We're comparing AF abilities vs Embrace + Fey Illumination + Fey Blessing + Whispering Dawn + Aetherpact + Seraph + Seraphic Veil + Consolation x2

Cool, let's break it down again since you ignored what I posted last time.

1. Embrace - Aetherflow obtained is a net HPS gain in all situations, and better directed to boot.
2. Fey Illumination / Whispering Dawn - Very easy to just ...pop them before dissipation. The cooldown on both skills is longer than dissipation.
3. Aetherpact - Hot trash and could legitimately be fully removed from Scholar with minimal impact. There are all of two, three fights where it's useful as part of a mit plan, and it's slightly useful if people mess up and die (and they don't need an IMMEDIATE heal for a raidwide. If you need to heal someone for a raidwide then reci+excog or dissipation into excog is required to keep the rezzed person alive.)
4. Seraph (Consolation, Seraphic Veil are part of Seraph.) - On a two minute timer, and mostly preplanned or popped during heavy incoming damage. We need to... *GASP!*... actually plan around these parts of fights. You know, actually do our job as mitigation healers. And even then it's really NOT difficult to just hold dissiaption or hold seraph depending on the situation

The only thing that should be compared to the Aetherflow gain from dissipation is embrace, because nothing else should be needed during a dissipation windows. And if you do need them during that window You should have a mit plan in place an be using those abilities right before dissipation.

Probably because there's not really anything comparable to Dissipation on any of the other healers, so it's hard to find anything that really compares well to it.

Hey, maybe we shouldn't remove the few things that make the most homogenized jobs (healers) distinct?

Kera's technically better than Soil, IMO, since it's a buff applied to people, it isn't constrained by 'stand within this specific location'.

Each of them are situational. Soil is far better if you have a known safe zone you are running to or your healer cannot get themselves in the group due to mechanics. The fact that it isn't centered on you can be a massive boon.

Kara is better if you need to move a lot, or expect to be in the middle of the party.

[Renathras]

...

The reason we count those other things is because they can't bee used during Dissipation. It's that simple. It's "Dissipation OR these things". You also missed Fey Blessing, though I'm sure you'll say it's also meaningless or some sort.

Okay, tell me this smart guy; which other Healer has such a trade-off on their big CDs? Which one locks themselves out of part of their kit to use a given CD, and which CD is that?

[Jamini]

The reason we count those other things is because they can't bee used during Dissipation. It's that simple. It's "Dissipation OR these things". You also missed Fey Blessing, though I'm sure you'll say it's also meaningless or some sort.

You use them before or after as needed. It's really that simple.

Fey Blessing is wonderful, but it also can just be used outside of the Dissipation window. Even on cooldown you spend less than a sixth of a fight with your Faerie out.

You also forget that Seraph locks out Fae Blessing too.

Okay, tell me this smart guy; which other Healer has such a trade-off on their big CDs? Which one locks themselves out of part of their kit to use a given CD, and which CD is that?

AST. RNG determines if you get a melee buff or a ranged buff. Your cards do not alternate. Lord and Lady are also mutually exclusive and do different things.

Sage does. In Eukrasia. Admittedly it's not very long, but hitting Eukrasia locks you out of your basic attack until you spend it.

Sage does. Kerakchole and Taurochole do not stack the defense buffs.

Sage and Scholar do. Eukrasian Prognosis and Galvanize cannot be stacked.

Astrologeon does with Lightspeed. You must choose if you want to use it for your burst phase, or if you need it for mobility during tough mechanics. You cannot use it for both.


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Listen. I get it. You play Sage and you don't like how Scholar works. That's fine. Sage exists explicitly for people who want to play a mit healer and don't want to deal with the complexity and (thankfully mild) Jank that comes with SCH. I, and quite a few others, actually very much like Scholar how it is. I don't want to see it blindly, needlessly gutted like a number of other classes for the sake of making it feel even more like other healers.

If you really feel Dissipation is bad, I strongly urge you to go prog/reclear as a Scholar without using it. Please, prove me wrong. Stream it even! I would be fascinated to watch.

But if you can't won't do that, then perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job.

[RyuDragnier]

Listen. I get it. You play Sage and you don't like how Scholar works. That's fine. Sage exists explicitly for people who want to play a mit healer and don't want to deal with the complexity and (thankfully mild) Jank that comes with SCH. I, and quite a few others, actually very much like Scholar how it is. I don't want to see it blindly, needlessly gutted like a number of other classes for the sake of making it feel even more like other healers.

If you really feel Dissipation is bad, I strongly urge you to go prog/reclear as a Scholar without using it. Please, prove me wrong. Stream it even! I would be fascinated to watch.

But if you can't won't do that, then perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job.

Jamini, Dissipation is hot trash. I say that as somebody who has played SCH since 2.0. I say that as somebody who has progged tiers in the past as SCH. Dissipation isn't a core part of our kit, it's a button that needs to either be removed or completely changed in a rework of SCH. Homogenization isn't needed for SCH as much as a complete rework that focuses on the fairy and our tactical abilities as our core identity. Current Dissipation, which removes the fairy from the equation and doesn't buff our tactical heals (Excog, Lustrate, Indom, etc etc), has no reason to exist in this game. A reworked version can, but they could delete the current version and nothing of value will have been lost.

[Renathras]

AST. RNG determines if you get a melee buff or a ranged buff.

Does not lock you out of using any of your abilities (and in practice, there are only two cards; melee or ranged), and using Draw OR Play does not lock you out of any of your other abilities.

Lord and Lady are also mutually exclusive and do different things.

And using Crown Draw does not lock you out of any of your other abilities.

Sage does. In Eukrasia.

AT BEST, Eukrasia "locks you out" of three buttons. If by "locks you out" means "grants access to better versions". The only time this would ever ever EVER be an issue is if you use it just after applying your DoT, at which point the answer is use Diagnosis to shield the Tank then Toxicon as this would refund you half a Dosis worth of damage. But either way, this does not lock you out of your kit and only locks you out of three abilities, all of which are inferior, for a single GCD. This is such a "Well, ackshually TECHNICALLY..." that it's somewhat laughable you used this as your example. It only meets the definition in the most technical sense possible.

Sage does. Kerakchole and Taurochole do not stack the defense buffs.

Again, which one locks you out of your kit to use it? If you put Taurochole on the Tank, does the Kerachole button not let you press it to shield the rest of the party? Are Holos and Panhaima disabled for the duration? No. You can go ahead and use the other one. It's generally not good to do so - though there are actually situations where this could make sense, such as P2S Tank tether + Party Stack where you can Tauro the Tether Tank (if he/she ran off from the party before you could Kera) and Kera the rest of the party - but in no way does using either lock you out of the rest of your abilities.

Sage and Scholar do. Eukrasian Prognosis and Galvanize cannot be stacked.

When SCH uses Adlo on someone, it doesn't lock SGE out of casting Eu Prog or Eu Diag on anyone. They don't lock each other out of their kits. This is another case where it's a bad idea to use them in that way, but it doesn't prevent or lock them out of using them.

Astrologeon does with Lightspeed. You must choose if you want to use it for your burst phase, or if you need it for mobility during tough mechanics.

This, again, does not lock you out of your kit or abilities. Besides, using this argument would mean using literally any button locks you out of things. Any CD locks itself down until it comes off CD, and using any GCD prevents using itself or any other GCD for 2.5 seconds. That's another "Well, ackshually TECHNICALLY..." that anyone sees is absurd. No, using a CD doesn't lock your kit.

Listen. I get it. You play Sage and you don't like how Scholar works.

ARR, I mained WHM and seconded SCH (and SMN; these were all the Jobs I had at 50 when HW launched besides MAYBE PLD super late).
HW, I mained WHM and seconded SCH.
SB, I dual-mained WHM and SCH, actually played SCH more late in the expansion.
ShB, I dual-mained WHM and SCH in about equal measure.
EW, I tri-main WHM, SCH, and SGE, and am picking up AST, and I freely switch between them based on mood and/or needs of the party.

...no, I don't "play Sage and (...) don't like how Scholar works". I play both and like how they both work.

I don't like how DISSIPATION works.

And I'm not alone.

If you really feel Dissipation is bad, I strongly urge you to go prog/reclear as a Scholar without using it. Please, prove me wrong.

I literally didn't have Dissipation on my bar until EW. And I still don't use it. I've cleared every Extreme in the game (excluding Ex5; that's the plan for this next week, been busy), and while not being a Savage raider, have cleared a handful of Savage fights anyway. And have done this without using Dissipation.

But if you can't won't do that, then perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job.

Oh, so if someone doesn't like a single ability on a Job, that means they don't enjoy the Job? Especially when it's an ability that can be omitted entirely and nothing of value lost? People are allowed to complain about bad mechanics. Especially ones that linger. No one said, of those complaining about Living Dead "Well, you can't or won't do that, so perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job". Well, probably some people did, but most people recognized they were stupid. It's okay to complain about bad mechanics. Complaining about bad mechanics and proposing solutions that aren't homogenization isn't homogenization or dumbing things down.

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I hate the mechanics of it, but perhaps even more, I hate the IDEA of it. As a SCH, you are a team with your Faerie. Tactically commanding her position and ability use to augment your own. That's the class fantasy. Dissipation flies in the face of that. So in addition to being awful on a mechanical level, it's incongruous with the very idea of the Job. It'd be like if BLM had Fullcure or WHM had Meteor or PLD had Dark Arts.

[Nizzi]

Jamini, Dissipation is hot trash. I say that as somebody who has played SCH since 2.0. I say that as somebody who has progged tiers in the past as SCH. Dissipation isn't a core part of our kit, it's a button that needs to either be removed or completely changed in a rework of SCH. Homogenization isn't needed for SCH as much as a complete rework that focuses on the fairy and our tactical abilities as our core identity. Current Dissipation, which removes the fairy from the equation and doesn't buff our tactical heals (Excog, Lustrate, Indom, etc etc), has no reason to exist in this game. A reworked version can, but they could delete the current version and nothing of value will have been lost.

I feel like I'm not playing the same game as a lot of you with the way people talk about Dissipation in this hyperbolic way. Respectfully, even in speed kills of P8S right now, you HAVE to cast GCD heals. If you can't see the value in Dissipation in that alone, I don't know what to say. The 20% GCD boost to Dissipation is very helpful, and the full stack of Aetherflow is great too. There's a LOT of healing that is done in P2, and if speed kills are still needing to cast Succor and Adlo, can you not see how useful it is? Dissipation is an invaluable prog tool. We can make all the arguments for "SCH only has 3 GCD heals, it shouldn't be using them at all!" but that's simply not the case when content still requires SCH to use those heals.
People always talk about how "optimally" Dissipation is used. "It's only used on the Aetherflow! And that's only 300 potency every 3 minutes! It's simply not good and it locks you out of your HEELS!" As if the people making these arguments are playing the job at the organized optimal level where this is all you use Dissipation or Aetherflow for. (Even top healers use Aetherflow on heals as well, so)

Could Dissipation be buffed? Sure, I wouldn't mind. Make the 20% healing potency buff SCH's oGCDs too, I don't care. That would make it even more useful for Lustrates for pumping into people who get Natural Alignment or for spot healing during High Concept potentially. But skills having inherent tradeoffs isn't a bad thing. If you've exhausted your fairy heals or the 20% potency + full stack is more useful, use Dissipation. If not, use your other heals. Dissipation is a multifunctional tool just like Recitation, and people need to treat it like that. Why do we seriously have people arguing that the ability to have another on demand full stack of Aetherflow is somehow "hot trash" that could be removed with nothing lost? It absolutely would be a loss to Scholar, no matter what.

[RyuDragnier]

Could Dissipation be buffed? Sure, I wouldn't mind. Make the 20% healing potency buff SCH's oGCDs too, I don't care. That would make it even more useful for Lustrates for pumping into people who get Natural Alignment or for spot healing during High Concept potentially. But skills having inherent tradeoffs isn't a bad thing. If you've exhausted your fairy heals or the 20% potency + full stack is more useful, use Dissipation. If not, use your other heals. Dissipation is a multifunctional tool just like Recitation, and people need to treat it like that. Why do we seriously have people arguing that the ability to have another on demand full stack of Aetherflow is somehow "hot trash" that could be removed with nothing lost? It absolutely would be a loss to Scholar, no matter what.

I wouldn't mind that for a buff, since then there'd be actual reason for using the skill other than for Aetherflow (because no, 20% increase on Adlo and Succor is not a good reason to use Dissipation, will never be).

If you need Dissipation for the heals right now, things have gotten really bad to where just the AF by itself isn't going to do anything for you. You're either recovering from a death, at which point the AF heals are already nerfed by the weakness to where they're not going to be as useful, or things are so out of control that you're being forced to spam Lustrate or throw everything out to save the run. You've lost your fairy for this, so best pray that you don't need any of her abilities (if they're up).

That's a really bad trade-off, always has been. WHMs would be screaming from the heavens if using Liturgy of the Bell locked them out of their other oGCD heals. ASTs would be screaming from the heavens if using Macrocosmos locked them out of their Aspected heals and Earthly Star. Sages would be screaming from the heavens if using Pneuma locked them out of oGCD heals. So why the hell is it okay for us to have this problem? Either we spread it to other people, or we get rid of the problem. They could give us 2 charges of the ability Aetherflow and it would serve the same purpose without locking us out of anything.