Change SCH Dissipation

[Jamini]

The thing is, we're not comparing AF abilities vs Embrace.

We're comparing AF abilities vs Embrace + Fey Illumination + Fey Blessing + Whispering Dawn + Aetherpact + Seraph + Seraphic Veil + Consolation x2

Cool, let's break it down again since you ignored what I posted last time.

1. Embrace - Aetherflow obtained is a net HPS gain in all situations, and better directed to boot.
2. Fey Illumination / Whispering Dawn - Very easy to just ...pop them before dissipation. The cooldown on both skills is longer than dissipation.
3. Aetherpact - Hot trash and could legitimately be fully removed from Scholar with minimal impact. There are all of two, three fights where it's useful as part of a mit plan, and it's slightly useful if people mess up and die (and they don't need an IMMEDIATE heal for a raidwide. If you need to heal someone for a raidwide then reci+excog or dissipation into excog is required to keep the rezzed person alive.)
4. Seraph (Consolation, Seraphic Veil are part of Seraph.) - On a two minute timer, and mostly preplanned or popped during heavy incoming damage. We need to... *GASP!*... actually plan around these parts of fights. You know, actually do our job as mitigation healers. And even then it's really NOT difficult to just hold dissiaption or hold seraph depending on the situation

The only thing that should be compared to the Aetherflow gain from dissipation is embrace, because nothing else should be needed during a dissipation windows. And if you do need them during that window You should have a mit plan in place an be using those abilities right before dissipation.

Probably because there's not really anything comparable to Dissipation on any of the other healers, so it's hard to find anything that really compares well to it.

Hey, maybe we shouldn't remove the few things that make the most homogenized jobs (healers) distinct?

Kera's technically better than Soil, IMO, since it's a buff applied to people, it isn't constrained by 'stand within this specific location'.

Each of them are situational. Soil is far better if you have a known safe zone you are running to or your healer cannot get themselves in the group due to mechanics. The fact that it isn't centered on you can be a massive boon.

Kara is better if you need to move a lot, or expect to be in the middle of the party.

[Renathras]

...

The reason we count those other things is because they can't bee used during Dissipation. It's that simple. It's "Dissipation OR these things". You also missed Fey Blessing, though I'm sure you'll say it's also meaningless or some sort.

Okay, tell me this smart guy; which other Healer has such a trade-off on their big CDs? Which one locks themselves out of part of their kit to use a given CD, and which CD is that?

[Jamini]

The reason we count those other things is because they can't bee used during Dissipation. It's that simple. It's "Dissipation OR these things". You also missed Fey Blessing, though I'm sure you'll say it's also meaningless or some sort.

You use them before or after as needed. It's really that simple.

Fey Blessing is wonderful, but it also can just be used outside of the Dissipation window. Even on cooldown you spend less than a sixth of a fight with your Faerie out.

You also forget that Seraph locks out Fae Blessing too.

Okay, tell me this smart guy; which other Healer has such a trade-off on their big CDs? Which one locks themselves out of part of their kit to use a given CD, and which CD is that?

AST. RNG determines if you get a melee buff or a ranged buff. Your cards do not alternate. Lord and Lady are also mutually exclusive and do different things.

Sage does. In Eukrasia. Admittedly it's not very long, but hitting Eukrasia locks you out of your basic attack until you spend it.

Sage does. Kerakchole and Taurochole do not stack the defense buffs.

Sage and Scholar do. Eukrasian Prognosis and Galvanize cannot be stacked.

Astrologeon does with Lightspeed. You must choose if you want to use it for your burst phase, or if you need it for mobility during tough mechanics. You cannot use it for both.


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Listen. I get it. You play Sage and you don't like how Scholar works. That's fine. Sage exists explicitly for people who want to play a mit healer and don't want to deal with the complexity and (thankfully mild) Jank that comes with SCH. I, and quite a few others, actually very much like Scholar how it is. I don't want to see it blindly, needlessly gutted like a number of other classes for the sake of making it feel even more like other healers.

If you really feel Dissipation is bad, I strongly urge you to go prog/reclear as a Scholar without using it. Please, prove me wrong. Stream it even! I would be fascinated to watch.

But if you can't won't do that, then perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job.

[RyuDragnier]

Listen. I get it. You play Sage and you don't like how Scholar works. That's fine. Sage exists explicitly for people who want to play a mit healer and don't want to deal with the complexity and (thankfully mild) Jank that comes with SCH. I, and quite a few others, actually very much like Scholar how it is. I don't want to see it blindly, needlessly gutted like a number of other classes for the sake of making it feel even more like other healers.

If you really feel Dissipation is bad, I strongly urge you to go prog/reclear as a Scholar without using it. Please, prove me wrong. Stream it even! I would be fascinated to watch.

But if you can't won't do that, then perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job.

Jamini, Dissipation is hot trash. I say that as somebody who has played SCH since 2.0. I say that as somebody who has progged tiers in the past as SCH. Dissipation isn't a core part of our kit, it's a button that needs to either be removed or completely changed in a rework of SCH. Homogenization isn't needed for SCH as much as a complete rework that focuses on the fairy and our tactical abilities as our core identity. Current Dissipation, which removes the fairy from the equation and doesn't buff our tactical heals (Excog, Lustrate, Indom, etc etc), has no reason to exist in this game. A reworked version can, but they could delete the current version and nothing of value will have been lost.

[Nizzi]

Jamini, Dissipation is hot trash. I say that as somebody who has played SCH since 2.0. I say that as somebody who has progged tiers in the past as SCH. Dissipation isn't a core part of our kit, it's a button that needs to either be removed or completely changed in a rework of SCH. Homogenization isn't needed for SCH as much as a complete rework that focuses on the fairy and our tactical abilities as our core identity. Current Dissipation, which removes the fairy from the equation and doesn't buff our tactical heals (Excog, Lustrate, Indom, etc etc), has no reason to exist in this game. A reworked version can, but they could delete the current version and nothing of value will have been lost.

I feel like I'm not playing the same game as a lot of you with the way people talk about Dissipation in this hyperbolic way. Respectfully, even in speed kills of P8S right now, you HAVE to cast GCD heals. If you can't see the value in Dissipation in that alone, I don't know what to say. The 20% GCD boost to Dissipation is very helpful, and the full stack of Aetherflow is great too. There's a LOT of healing that is done in P2, and if speed kills are still needing to cast Succor and Adlo, can you not see how useful it is? Dissipation is an invaluable prog tool. We can make all the arguments for "SCH only has 3 GCD heals, it shouldn't be using them at all!" but that's simply not the case when content still requires SCH to use those heals.
People always talk about how "optimally" Dissipation is used. "It's only used on the Aetherflow! And that's only 300 potency every 3 minutes! It's simply not good and it locks you out of your HEELS!" As if the people making these arguments are playing the job at the organized optimal level where this is all you use Dissipation or Aetherflow for. (Even top healers use Aetherflow on heals as well, so)

Could Dissipation be buffed? Sure, I wouldn't mind. Make the 20% healing potency buff SCH's oGCDs too, I don't care. That would make it even more useful for Lustrates for pumping into people who get Natural Alignment or for spot healing during High Concept potentially. But skills having inherent tradeoffs isn't a bad thing. If you've exhausted your fairy heals or the 20% potency + full stack is more useful, use Dissipation. If not, use your other heals. Dissipation is a multifunctional tool just like Recitation, and people need to treat it like that. Why do we seriously have people arguing that the ability to have another on demand full stack of Aetherflow is somehow "hot trash" that could be removed with nothing lost? It absolutely would be a loss to Scholar, no matter what.

[RyuDragnier]

Could Dissipation be buffed? Sure, I wouldn't mind. Make the 20% healing potency buff SCH's oGCDs too, I don't care. That would make it even more useful for Lustrates for pumping into people who get Natural Alignment or for spot healing during High Concept potentially. But skills having inherent tradeoffs isn't a bad thing. If you've exhausted your fairy heals or the 20% potency + full stack is more useful, use Dissipation. If not, use your other heals. Dissipation is a multifunctional tool just like Recitation, and people need to treat it like that. Why do we seriously have people arguing that the ability to have another on demand full stack of Aetherflow is somehow "hot trash" that could be removed with nothing lost? It absolutely would be a loss to Scholar, no matter what.

I wouldn't mind that for a buff, since then there'd be actual reason for using the skill other than for Aetherflow (because no, 20% increase on Adlo and Succor is not a good reason to use Dissipation, will never be).

If you need Dissipation for the heals right now, things have gotten really bad to where just the AF by itself isn't going to do anything for you. You're either recovering from a death, at which point the AF heals are already nerfed by the weakness to where they're not going to be as useful, or things are so out of control that you're being forced to spam Lustrate or throw everything out to save the run. You've lost your fairy for this, so best pray that you don't need any of her abilities (if they're up).

That's a really bad trade-off, always has been. WHMs would be screaming from the heavens if using Liturgy of the Bell locked them out of their other oGCD heals. ASTs would be screaming from the heavens if using Macrocosmos locked them out of their Aspected heals and Earthly Star. Sages would be screaming from the heavens if using Pneuma locked them out of oGCD heals. So why the hell is it okay for us to have this problem? Either we spread it to other people, or we get rid of the problem. They could give us 2 charges of the ability Aetherflow and it would serve the same purpose without locking us out of anything.

[Renathras]

As if the people making these arguments are playing the job at the organized optimal level where this is all you use Dissipation or Aetherflow for.

Here's the thing, people not doing super high end content only use it for that. So that is all they see. There are two points where it's used that way: Mid-core players doing mid-core tent that aren't optimizing it like you are, and ultra-high-end players that have their party comp and overall CD planned perfectly to avoid needing any GCD healing that would require Dissipation. The only people who consistently benefit from it are probably speed runners, and even there, at the highest end, they may use it for Energy Drains, or to free up other AF stacks to be used on EDs.

Ryu has the right of it:

If you need Dissipation for the heals right now, things have gotten really bad to where just the AF by itself isn't going to do anything for you. You're either recovering from a death, at which point the AF heals are already nerfed by the weakness to where they're not going to be as useful, or things are so out of control that you're being forced to spam Lustrate or throw everything out to save the run. You've lost your fairy for this, so best pray that you don't need any of her abilities (if they're up).

That's a really bad trade-off, always has been.

Dissipation has never been a good ability. Ever since its original incarnation where you had to resummon your Faerie after it ended (ONE thing about it they thankfully fixed), it's never been a great ability at any point in the game's history, and has most often been shoehorned into being a DPS CD because of how it nerfs your healing. It has niche applications where it can be useful as a healing tool, but they are niche.

I'm not sure I'd say "hot trash", but more that it's a relic of the pre-EW days when SCH was consistently clunky for no good reason, and it's one of the stubborn hangers-on. I have always contended that "mastering clunk" is not a measure of skill. Sure, you can get a copy of Superman 64 (legendary for how bad it was and how bad its gameplay and controls were) and play the game, maybe even master it...but why would you ever do that to yourself? You could, instead, get a challenging game like Remnant: From the Ashes that has a spot on control scheme such that, when you die, you say "Okay...yeah, that was fair, that was on me", and when you succeed, it feels like you did so with knowledge and skills, not by mastering clunk and having the stars align.

3 AF stacks sounds great in vacuum, but cons matter. Suppose you have an ability that gives you 3 AF stacks but inflicts Silence and Pacify on you for 30 seconds. Surely that wouldn't be seen as a good ability just because it COULD be useful in niche situations with very specific party and build strategies?

...

I think it's more the argument of just HOW niche it is, and how rare it is to use it for its actual purpose. Something like Plenary Indulgence is pretty niche (you really pretty much never strictly need it), but it's straightforward in the sense of what it does and it doesn't actively tie your hands to use it. Worst case scenario, it's wasted through either overhealing or you not being able to use an AOE GCD heal during it, but it's not actively working against you. Dissipation being a bit more complex is fine, as that's SCH's MO, but the anti-synergy with your kit isn't, since SCH's theme is synergy; being synergistic with their Faerie partner, being a synergistic component of a tactical unit, using its abilities synergistically with each other. Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, and Recitation are all examples of good abilities that do this, as they modify and work with other abilities, and even with each other in the case of Recitation and either of the other two. They don't actively fight each other directly. You could argue Emergency Tactics and Deployment tactics indirectly do, but neither locks you out of or prevents use of the other, either.

Dissipation doesn't work with anything else any better than Fey Illumination does. And Fey Illumination works with ALL of your heals and provides party mitigation vs magic on the side. And has a shorter CD. The only thing Dissipation actively works with are Physic, Adlo, and Succor. It gives you 3 AF, but doesn't work with or modify them in any way.

Not to mention use of your Faerie IS a core part of SCH's toolkit, and what Dissipation locks you out of. Thematically and mechanically, it's at odds with SCH's identity for no good reason.

I don't think it needs to be deleted, but it should be made to not have that level of dissonance with the overall kit and theme of the Job, imo.

[Jamini]

Jamini, Dissipation is hot trash. I say that as somebody who has played SCH since 2.0. I say that as somebody who has progged tiers in the past as SCH. Dissipation isn't a core part of our kit, it's a button that needs to either be removed or completely changed in a rework of SCH. Homogenization isn't needed for SCH as much as a complete rework that focuses on the fairy and our tactical abilities as our core identity. Current Dissipation, which removes the fairy from the equation and doesn't buff our tactical heals (Excog, Lustrate, Indom, etc etc), has no reason to exist in this game. A reworked version can, but they could delete the current version and nothing of value will have been lost.

The last tier you cleared with public logs on SCH was in Deltascape. Granted, you did fantastic back then!

Dissipation has also significantly changed since then, as has Scholar. Most notably was removing the requirement to resummon your Faerie (In 5.0) as well as at leas six, seven other tweaks through shadowbringers that I can see.

they could delete the current version and nothing of value will have been lost.

I completely disagree as someone playing and progging presently. Abyssos in particular has a great deal of healing required in it. At some points I am legitimately squeezing out as much healing as I can, especially when progressing through a tier. Cutting my Aetherflow by a fifth would make things uncomfortably tight, and it would reduce what little burst I have nearly in half.

[Renathras]

AST. RNG determines if you get a melee buff or a ranged buff.

Does not lock you out of using any of your abilities (and in practice, there are only two cards; melee or ranged), and using Draw OR Play does not lock you out of any of your other abilities.

Lord and Lady are also mutually exclusive and do different things.

And using Crown Draw does not lock you out of any of your other abilities.

Sage does. In Eukrasia.

AT BEST, Eukrasia "locks you out" of three buttons. If by "locks you out" means "grants access to better versions". The only time this would ever ever EVER be an issue is if you use it just after applying your DoT, at which point the answer is use Diagnosis to shield the Tank then Toxicon as this would refund you half a Dosis worth of damage. But either way, this does not lock you out of your kit and only locks you out of three abilities, all of which are inferior, for a single GCD. This is such a "Well, ackshually TECHNICALLY..." that it's somewhat laughable you used this as your example. It only meets the definition in the most technical sense possible.

Sage does. Kerakchole and Taurochole do not stack the defense buffs.

Again, which one locks you out of your kit to use it? If you put Taurochole on the Tank, does the Kerachole button not let you press it to shield the rest of the party? Are Holos and Panhaima disabled for the duration? No. You can go ahead and use the other one. It's generally not good to do so - though there are actually situations where this could make sense, such as P2S Tank tether + Party Stack where you can Tauro the Tether Tank (if he/she ran off from the party before you could Kera) and Kera the rest of the party - but in no way does using either lock you out of the rest of your abilities.

Sage and Scholar do. Eukrasian Prognosis and Galvanize cannot be stacked.

When SCH uses Adlo on someone, it doesn't lock SGE out of casting Eu Prog or Eu Diag on anyone. They don't lock each other out of their kits. This is another case where it's a bad idea to use them in that way, but it doesn't prevent or lock them out of using them.

Astrologeon does with Lightspeed. You must choose if you want to use it for your burst phase, or if you need it for mobility during tough mechanics.

This, again, does not lock you out of your kit or abilities. Besides, using this argument would mean using literally any button locks you out of things. Any CD locks itself down until it comes off CD, and using any GCD prevents using itself or any other GCD for 2.5 seconds. That's another "Well, ackshually TECHNICALLY..." that anyone sees is absurd. No, using a CD doesn't lock your kit.

Listen. I get it. You play Sage and you don't like how Scholar works.

ARR, I mained WHM and seconded SCH (and SMN; these were all the Jobs I had at 50 when HW launched besides MAYBE PLD super late).
HW, I mained WHM and seconded SCH.
SB, I dual-mained WHM and SCH, actually played SCH more late in the expansion.
ShB, I dual-mained WHM and SCH in about equal measure.
EW, I tri-main WHM, SCH, and SGE, and am picking up AST, and I freely switch between them based on mood and/or needs of the party.

...no, I don't "play Sage and (...) don't like how Scholar works". I play both and like how they both work.

I don't like how DISSIPATION works.

And I'm not alone.

If you really feel Dissipation is bad, I strongly urge you to go prog/reclear as a Scholar without using it. Please, prove me wrong.

I literally didn't have Dissipation on my bar until EW. And I still don't use it. I've cleared every Extreme in the game (excluding Ex5; that's the plan for this next week, been busy), and while not being a Savage raider, have cleared a handful of Savage fights anyway. And have done this without using Dissipation.

But if you can't won't do that, then perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job.

Oh, so if someone doesn't like a single ability on a Job, that means they don't enjoy the Job? Especially when it's an ability that can be omitted entirely and nothing of value lost? People are allowed to complain about bad mechanics. Especially ones that linger. No one said, of those complaining about Living Dead "Well, you can't or won't do that, so perhaps you should stand aside and let people who really enjoy the job as it is enjoy the job". Well, probably some people did, but most people recognized they were stupid. It's okay to complain about bad mechanics. Complaining about bad mechanics and proposing solutions that aren't homogenization isn't homogenization or dumbing things down.

.

I hate the mechanics of it, but perhaps even more, I hate the IDEA of it. As a SCH, you are a team with your Faerie. Tactically commanding her position and ability use to augment your own. That's the class fantasy. Dissipation flies in the face of that. So in addition to being awful on a mechanical level, it's incongruous with the very idea of the Job. It'd be like if BLM had Fullcure or WHM had Meteor or PLD had Dark Arts.

[Calysto]

Scholar is themed around tactics and battle planning, not synergy.

Lore-wise SCH is themed around tactics and battle planning.
No tactician would forgo notable advantage and the safety of it's troops for a little of damage. The fact a SCH can't think of anything else that "it's safe, better eat my fairy as it gives me things of which I'll use one" isn't good planning or resource management either.
The base of a good tactic would be to use your assets in a way that earn you more that what you spent.

Gameplay-wise, SCH theme is a mess, but you have synergy and had even more. From dots into bane, accel.aetherflow in SB, to AF generating fairy gauge (only synergy remaining in 5.0+).

Rather than elevating the other healers to scholar’s level, you want to also kill scholar? Sage’s entire identity is “easy scholar” so that is a pretty valid option. Or you know you could just think for a second beforehand.

All healers need to be improved to have a real skill ceiling, but don't act as if SCH still has any identity or complexity.
SGE isn't "easy scholar", it's "another aestetic scholar" improved to be more reactive, and has more potential for complexity that SCH right now.