Page 12 of 19 FirstFirst ... 2 10 11 12 13 14 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 185
  1. #111
    Player
    Rithy255's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    1,923
    Character
    Rithris Amaya
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Here's some Things I think that will make the job more fun, the Job isn't bad it's just highly clunky by its design, I feel like they need to go with something more coherent
    >Remove some "bloat" Circle of scorn could just be removed, FOF could be reworked (removed from button), Holy Spirit can upgrade into Holy circle which is a cleaving holy spirit, Some adjustments to holy shelltron/intervention could be made into one ability, under req Holy circle/spirit can turn into the blades combo or req can turn into Confiteor (if possible). Some people may not have space issues but I think removing some bloat 1. helps people out with space 2. Allows for future abilities rather then just "upgrade traits"
    >Reworking certain parts of the rotation, I'd personally love to see a separate goring blade combo that gives you the "fight or flight" buff, for 30 seconds stacked to 60 yeah similar to warrior but it gives PLD something extra to manage during non-burst, Goring blade as it is, is pointless, I'd like to see Atonement reduced (2 stacks sound good), while giving you a stack of holy spirit (maybe you could have two stacks of divine might). Having less atonement spam, having more flexible opportunities with holy spirit, while also having another thing to consider about your combo.
    >Changing Utility to be more Inline with how the game works currently, Cover needs to be reworked, Clemency should be apart of your MP management, right now theirs no point to PLD having MP costs, I feel like clemency could be something we actively use as a PLD (if its too strong, don't look at warrior though! just nerf the sustain on magic attacks or most sustain in your gcd attacks), I'd personally rework passage to be apart of your Oath gauge instead of cover and likely change how it works.
    >Make Oath gauge more interactive with the Job, I don't know? just 1. Make it based on gcd attacks or a timer 2. Give a benefit (like 10 oath) or something for mitigating attacks with holy Shelton properly.
    >Make the Job Fun at early levels, Holy spirit, Divine might and even req could be moved down if we rework FOF, Holy circle can be the upgraded Cleave version of holy spirit, with a 50% fall off or something, Give PLD some sustain (Idk maybe earlier ocgd clemency or something, maybe weaker to reflect that level), Give pld a gap closer as well around 50-60? right now PLD doesn't feel fun at all at lower levels.

    Are these change ideas realistic? not at all, I'm hoping realistically that PLD still gets a few changes before 7.0. But I can dream of a paladin that fills the Job and fantasy of a paladin, while being fun and balanced, I think even if the job stands out defensively it's fine it also has some weaknesses, Hallowed ground and slightly, very slightly lower DPS (should even be better then it is currently with all those changes) would make up for some strong upsides I just want PLD to personally feel like its job fantasy more, that both be in how its DPS rotation is and how its Defensives/utility plays out.
    (1)
    Last edited by Rithy255; 01-27-2023 at 11:28 AM.

  2. #112
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    ...
    Two tank players with identical un(raid)buffed damage as a function of time curves (i.e. dps(t)) will have identical average rDPS. Also, if you were to pair them both with any raid buff of your choice, they would offer the buff provider with the exact same DPS benefit. This is the very definition of DPS parity. Their aDPS totals will only be the same if their raid composition is also identical and raid buffs are used at the exact same times.
    (1)

  3. #113
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    Two tank players with identical un(raid)buffed damage as a function of time curves (i.e. dps(t)) will have identical average rDPS. Also, if you were to pair them both with any raid buff of your choice, they would offer the buff provider with the exact same DPS benefit. This is the very definition of DPS parity. Their aDPS totals will only be the same if their raid composition is also identical and raid buffs are used at the exact same times.
    rDPS on a non-buffer is not influenced by the jobs' damage dynamics (function of time curves) beyond the basic multiplicity between its own buffs and whatever potency falls therein and the timing of the fight; it is, for non-buffers, absolutely irrelevant to team synergies... because the metric was made specifically to be irrelevant to team-synergies for non-buffers.

    aDPS on a non-buffer, because it accounts for raid buffs, which in turn care about when that damage happens, is influenced by the jobs' damage dynamics, and is therefore pertinent to team synergies.

    Only if two jobs have both the same aDPS and rDPS would they have the same damage dynamics as relevant to raid buffs.

    If they have the same aDPS, they will produce the same contribution to the party.

    Yes, one may thereafter have lower or higher rDPS and therefore produce a little more or a little less than the other when solo or in light parties, but performance when solo or in light parties is not a distinction that matters to any rewarded challenging content in this game.

    Their aDPS totals will only be the same if their raid composition is also identical and raid buffs are used at the exact same times.
    You have up >100,000 parses from which to compare, where top percentiles increasingly concentrate towards the very same compositions.

    Nor would that be relevant unless one comparator were specifically only taken in raidbuff-light comps on the mere basis of perceived less raid buff value and the other only in raidbuff-heavy comps, yet even top-20 speedruns will quickly show that's not the case for any comparison one attempts among tanks.
    (2)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 01-27-2023 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #114
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Let's keep this simple. We're talking about tanks, so you can take the term 'non-buffer' as implicit.

    Let's say that we have two tank players with identical dps(t) curves prior to raid buffs. We already agree that they both have the same rDPS regardless of team composition, and the proof of this is trivial from the formula itself. Let's say that I come along with Arcane Circle and I apply it with the same timing to each of these curves. I get the same personal benefit from each of these players being on my team, which is the quantity that I'm actually interested in as a buff provider. In fact, you can do this with any buff, be it single target or raidwide, and always get the same result. That's really what we're talking about with dps parity on tanks.

    Their aDPS could be anything, because that depends on the party's composition. And the aDPS benefit of having a BRD present doesn't even correlate with two minute burst.
    (1)

  5. #115
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    Let's say that we have two tank players with identical dps(t) curves prior to raid buffs. We already agree that they both have the same rDPS regardless of team composition, and the proof of this is trivial from the formula itself.
    Again, though, rDPS parity =/= same damage curves. You cannot simply look at rDPS parity and say two jobs would therefore perform identically under the same raid buffs.

    Let's say that I come along with Arcane Circle and I apply it with the same timing to each of these curves. I get the same personal benefit from each of these players being on my team, which is the quantity that I'm actually interested in as a buff provider.
    But you don't, because they don't have the same damage curves relevant to an average coverage of raid buffs; else they'd have the same ratio of aDPS to rDPS. Your hypothetical doesn't exist except between two of the same job. That was the whole point of these changes.

    I'm not sure why you're still trying to pass off DRK's massive aDPS lead as a non-advantage on the mere basis that it's rDPS isn't that high. To look only at rDPS is specifically to hide its group contribution behind the buffers -- to purposely leave out ~5% of its contribution (if one were to split credit evenly between buffer and exploiter).

    Their aDPS could be anything, because that depends on the party's composition.
    Tank 1's Composition: The average of ~100,000 parses, with no significant skew in composition based on job selection.
    Tank 2's Composition: The average of ~100,000 parses, with no significant skew in composition based on job selection.

    They are, for all intents and purposes, the same composition.
    (3)

  6. #116
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    If two tanks have the same dps(t) curves, they have the same average rDPS. You obviously cannot assume the reverse, but that's not the point here. This is also a composition independent property for tanks, because rDPS = nDPS for them.

    As a player who actually supplies raid buffs, if you have two tanks with the same dps(t) curves, they're also going to provide me with exact the same benefit. They both burst with the same intensity at the same time. I can take any buff application window buff(t) and reap numerically identical rDPS benefits from both tanks. This is the actual quantity of interest.

    In short, if two tanks have the same dps(t) profiles, not only do they provide buff providers like myself with identical rDPS gains, but their own rDPS values will be identical. So no, improving a job's alignment with buffs doesn't have to come at the expense of rDPS parity.
    (1)

  7. #117
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    If two tanks have the same dps(t) curves, they have the same average rDPS. You obviously cannot assume the reverse, but that's not the point here.
    It damn well should be the point as long as you're still pointing at rDPS and going "rDPS parity? Then I guess they contribute equally." You keep pointing at similar average rDPS and trying to infer equivalent damage profiles from it. It doesn't mean that. At all.

    If they have the same rDPS in the same fight length, they same personal damage dealt within the same length of time, but that says nothing for when, precisely, they dealt damage, nor how much of that would therefore fall under raid buffs.

    if you have two tanks with the same dps(t) curves
    Why do you keep shifting this to a hypothetical that is far from reality? Even GNB and DRK have rather distant dps(t) curves.

    So no, improving a job's alignment with buffs doesn't have to come at the expense of rDPS parity.
    If two jobs have different dps(t) curves that cause them to benefit differently from raid buffs, they cannot simultaneously have parity in settings with raid buffs (as noted by average aDPS) and in settings without raid buffs (as noted by rDPS).

    Which brings us back to the point long since already established: If you want PLD to have parity in its actual, total contribution in 8-mans (as noted by aDPS) without having changed its damage profile, then it needs to have excessive rDPS.

    Personally, I think that'd have been fine, as we don't have any meaningful 4-man content anyways, but perhaps they're future-proofing for later variations of Criterion Dungeons or the like.

    There will always be some differences in jobs' ratios between their rDPS and aDPS so long as each job has a different profile/dynamics/curve to its damage, but you can shrink the most egregious examples to future-proof for balance across multiple settings (e.g., both light and full parties).
    (4)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 01-28-2023 at 04:59 PM.

  8. #118
    Player
    Elizasylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    178
    Character
    Senba Torii
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    No I like it, I think it's great. I just really don't think Confettior and combo justify having an exclusive button for it. Button bloat is real. Fold Confettior into Holy Spirit/Circle or Req itself.
    (2)

  9. #119
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizasylen View Post
    No I like it, I think it's great. I just really don't think Confettior and combo justify having an exclusive button for it. Button bloat is real. Fold Confettior into Holy Spirit/Circle or Req itself.
    Having Req itself be replaced by Confiteor Combo would make far more sense, since Holy Spirit and Circle may be used without Req but Conf cannot be.

    Also really don't care for PLD's Instant-Sonic-Break at this point, so I wouldn't mind seeing that go (though I'd still rather it just be reverted and Conf not break main combo progress, since FoF-Req-Conf-combo only delays the DoT by a single GCD anyways), or Atonement replacing Royal Authority when able or for Atonement not to break the main combo.
    (3)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 01-28-2023 at 03:02 PM.

  10. #120
    Player
    Rithy255's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    1,923
    Character
    Rithris Amaya
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizasylen View Post
    No I like it, I think it's great. I just really don't think Confettior and combo justify having an exclusive button for it. Button bloat is real. Fold Confettior into Holy Spirit/Circle or Req itself.
    I feel like they could just make Holy circle a cleave aoe upgrade for spirit, but I generally agree, epically now it would make sense while under req you don't really wanna use holy spirit at 90 but at 80 you want to use 3 but can be out of order... It just seems like it would solve space issues and people pressing holy spirit on accident.
    (1)

Page 12 of 19 FirstFirst ... 2 10 11 12 13 14 ... LastLast