Please stop removing Damage Over Time effects from every job, add more complexity

[Azuri]

I think everybody would agree that they just need to add an "early detonate" button like with MCH and Automaton Queen, where you can end Queen early if you need to, with the remaining damage loaded into a final attack so you don't lose any potency. Something like that would help deal with bursting down boss adds to prevent a wipe too, since the DoTs are no longer a liability due to time constraints, you can just detonate them for the burst.

There would be no reason to ever not press that button. At this point might as well just make every DoT a direct damage abiliy. Detonating Wildfire/Queen early is a DPS loss and you should never actually plan for it.

[Shurrikhan]

The whole notion that DoTs should be removed from the game because raid bosses "jump" is just silly. Raid bosses jump on a script. Anyone that raids knows exactly when that is going to happen. If the boss will jump before the DoT will be more effective than some other GCD - simply don't reapply the DoT. That's like saying we should remove Battle Litany because a DRG might use it on CD before the boss jumps. Or... just hold it until it makes sense to use it. Just like DoTs.

To be fair, the job's damage would still suffer accordingly, simply because its filler attacks are that much weaker because its DoTs are that much stronger -- in the same sense that combo openers are weak so that combo finishers can be strong.

In single-target combat, assuming initial balance, if your mod(n) [where n is the number of seconds/GCDs for your DoT/combo cycle] fits the fight timings better than other jobs fit theirs, your job lucks out / "wins". Same as it does for the larger CDs.

I think everybody would agree that they just need to add an "early detonate" button like with MCH and Automaton Queen, where you can end Queen early if you need to, with the remaining damage loaded into a final attack so you don't lose any potency. Something like that would help deal with bursting down boss adds to prevent a wipe too, since the DoTs are no longer a liability due to time constraints, you can just detonate them for the burst.

That'd simply either

• be a dps-loss, as it is on Wildfire/Queen,
  
  or
  
  
• turn DoTs each into two-step combos.

[Rithy255]

I just wonder what goring blades going to do now instead?
It can't just give you "holy spirit" unless royal authority is removed? I feel like they're likely going to replace it with a 10% damage buff similar to warriors, Likely remove FOF and rename it as the damage buff you get from Goring, they might make royal authority give you one holy spirit instead of atonement (atonement looks likely to be removed thinking about it...). It seems pretty weird that you're also getting magic outside or req? Idk if/how that will also effect your req window

I personally don't think the DOT matters in the long run I liked old PLD's rotation but I can understand why they're doing it, I'm just confused what PLD's rotation is going to look like now...? I'm really confused what they're going to do with it.

[ForsakenRoe]

I just wonder what goring blades going to do now instead?
It can't just give you "holy spirit" unless royal authority is removed? I feel like they're likely going to replace it with a 10% damage buff similar to warriors, Likely remove FOF and rename it as the damage buff you get from Goring, they might make royal authority give you one holy spirit instead of atonement (atonement looks likely to be removed thinking about it...). It seems pretty weird that you're also getting magic outside or req? Idk if/how that will also effect your req window

I personally don't think the DOT matters in the long run I liked old PLD's rotation but I can understand why they're doing it, I'm just confused what PLD's rotation is going to look like now...? I'm really confused what they're going to do with it.

Goring>HS costs MP, RA>Atonement regenerates MP, job done probably. Assuming I'm anywhere close to the mark for their new design, the answer to 'Why would you want to RA' is 'to generate MP to use Goring>HS'. It also fixes the 63s loop dilemma, by giving PLD two 4step (10s) combos to build a 60s loop off of. Assuming Req stays as it is, the 4 HS > Conf > Blades is 8GCDs, or 20s (thanks to skillspeed not working), but I think they'll change that. Instead, I expect Req is deleted, or reworked to a hard hitting GCD. My money's on GCD, because then it can upgrade at 80 into Confiteor. No longer using 4 HS in a row, we'd have 5 Goring/RA combos to build the rotation with, then the 4 step combo of Confiteor (a standalone 60s CD), Blade of Faith/Truth/The other one, and that's the last 10s combo, to round out to 60s. It'd also mean, assuming 3rd GCD raidbuffs, we'd go Fast, Riot, (raidbuff start) Goring, HS, Confiteor, BladeBladeBlade, Fast, Riot (raidbuff end here or before riot, depends on skillspeed), meaning we very easily get our hard hits like the HS and the full blade combo inside raidbuffs. As it is now, if we used Req on the exact same frame the raidbuffs go out, we'd miss the last Blade because Skillspeed doesn't help with the spells, and animation lock would screw us.

With this, downtime from boss (eg High Concept) would actually be completely fine, as PLD would keep regenerating it's 'gauge' while other tanks are left crying cos they cant hit the boss. This would mean, because of regen, you might swap a 60s loop from 3 Goring>HS combos / 2 RA>Atone combos, to FOUR Goring>HS / 1 RA>Atone. My main question is whether Divine Might procs work like Raiju (use it right away or lose it, essentially a forced 4 step combo), or can be used whenever (or even stacked), as if they can be stacked and saved, it'd mean we're just gonna still use eg 3 Holy Spirits inside raidbuffs, then Confiteor/Blades, which will definitely not look like 3 Fell Cleaves, then Primal Rend, then 2 Inner Chaos no sir

[dspguy]

To be fair, the job's damage would still suffer accordingly, simply because its filler attacks are that much weaker because its DoTs are that much stronger -- in the same sense that combo openers are weak so that combo finishers can be strong.

In single-target combat, assuming initial balance, if your mod(n) [where n is the number of seconds/GCDs for your DoT/combo cycle] fits the fight timings better than other jobs fit theirs, your job lucks out / "wins". Same as it does for the larger CDs.

Consider that SE reads comments like yours and this is why we have 2 minute burst windows and moving towards homogeneity across all roles. Imagine that one job has a slight advantage over another job in an RPG! Wild concept, that is. Maybe the MCH's 3rd Drill comes up just before the BRD's best usage of Iron Jaws, but the boss jumps and eats about 30s of that DoT. Maybe for that one battle, don't go as BRD if the DPS loss is enough to make the difference between clearing it or not.

Nearly every other RPG we play, there are advantages and disadvantages to certain spells, weapons, characters, etc. The notion that this MMORPG should be any different is silly.

[Shurrikhan]

Consider that SE reads comments like yours and this is why we have 2 minute burst windows and moving towards homogeneity across all roles. Imagine that one job has a slight advantage over another job in an RPG! Wild concept, that is. Maybe the MCH's 3rd Drill comes up just before the BRD's best usage of Iron Jaws, but the boss jumps and eats about 30s of that DoT. Maybe for that one battle, don't go as BRD if the DPS loss is enough to make the difference between clearing it or not.

Nearly every other RPG we play, there are advantages and disadvantages to certain spells, weapons, characters, etc. The notion that this MMORPG should be any different is silly.

???

None of what you quoted was a perceived negative about job diversity. I advocate ad (others') nauseum for job diversity.

I'm just pointing out the reality of it. Which jobs are advantaged in a particular single-target fight comes down to how well their damage cycles fit the content; DoTs play no significant part in that unless the devs choose specifically to screw them over by nullifying those DoTs on certain events. We should stop pretending, given that DoTs for expansions continued ticking just fine even while the boss had "jumped" away (or was otherwise untargetable or immune to further direct damage), that boss jumps would be the reason behind the removal of DoTs.

Similarly, your strategy of "just use your filler instead of your soft CD (that you're balanced around using on CD / keeping up at all times)" is no solution; it still retains an entirely needless imbalance over an arbitrary mechanic setting. The devs just need to not purposely screw over DoTs (e.g., by just not actively having jumps immunize or purge already applied afflictions). That's it.

We had plenty of fights with jumps where this was never a problem, because the devs hadn't made it one. We don't need bloated solutions like early detonation; we just need the devs not to flip the "break DoTs, I guess?" switch.

[Lyth]

I'm not really sure why you would want to use modular arithmetic to describe DoT truncation. Unless you just encountered it in an introductory number theory course and were really excited about the concept or something.

You probably could design a DoT focused job from the ground up that conforms to the 'rules' of job synergy. Time magic would be a great way to do it. Perhaps you freeze your DoTs so that they continue to tick without the timer changing, and then accelerate all the timers to do burst or deal with phase changes. I don't think that clipping is that much of a design problem with DoTs either, as you can simply design timers that can be extended twice in a row. It would be interesting if the focus wasn't on actually recasting DoTs, but rather utilizing a set of buffs to build up the momentum going into burst.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not really sure why you would want to use modular arithmetic to describe DoT truncation. Unless you just encountered it in an introductory number theory course and were really excited about the concept or something.

DoTs surpass filler damage after a number of seconds. If the jumps make it so you're losing the ability to get that DoT's number of seconds to redeem itself, it screws over the DoT user. Call it modular math or whatever else you like, but it's not as if it's anything advanced. It was just one of many spitball ways to approximate relative value.

The larger point, though, was merely that if a job is balanced around being able to use a given DoT every so often, and now there's a forced break in that that pace that reduces its uptime (or number of effective casts within a given total fight length), simply switching to a less screwed over alternative isn't about to bail out a DoT job. Just like having a jump occur right as your burst CDs or combo finisher (before the combo timers were so extended) would.

You probably could design a DoT focused job from the ground up that conforms to the 'rules' of job synergy.

Yeah, that'd be great. I'm not sure what 'rules' create anything as neat as your examples, but... I'd love to see that applied there and elsewhere.

[Melethron123]

Consider that SE reads comments like yours and this is why we have 2 minute burst windows and moving towards homogeneity across all roles. Imagine that one job has a slight advantage over another job in an RPG! Wild concept, that is. Maybe the MCH's 3rd Drill comes up just before the BRD's best usage of Iron Jaws, but the boss jumps and eats about 30s of that DoT. Maybe for that one battle, don't go as BRD if the DPS loss is enough to make the difference between clearing it or not.

Nearly every other RPG we play, there are advantages and disadvantages to certain spells, weapons, characters, etc. The notion that this MMORPG should be any different is silly.

already quit WoW and GW2 because of crap design like this, luckily the devs learned from ARR/HW that it only creates animosity and resentment in the community (which is what happens in the previously mentioned games)

[RyuDragnier]

That'd simply either

• be a dps-loss, as it is on Wildfire/Queen,
  
  or
  
  
• turn DoTs each into two-step combos.

Hey, I'm trying to come up with something that gives a reason for DoTs to still exist, because at this rate I won't be surprised if SE removes them from all jobs (other than BLU) permanently. Btw, said detonate button would likely be an oGCD with a hefty timer to avoid spam of it.