Please stop removing Damage Over Time effects from every job, add more complexity

[ForsakenRoe]

Or maybe just consider that all rotations are and were relativly easy to pull and complexity went more from bosses and their mechanics ? In top on complexity being a subjective thing.
With few guides and some training everybody is able to do correct things on a dummy. It's not like FFXIV needs miliseconds perfects thing to pull off the max of everyjobs.

isn't that the problem people are trying to illustrate? that the complexity is all coming from the bosses and not the classes, thus making lower level content feel boring, because it doesnt contain enough complexity to make it interesting?
also making classes complex for the sake of complex is not what most people are after (i hope), i want to see classes that have low skill floor, high skill ceiling, so we can seek the complexity if we want to, but casual players aren't screwed over by their class requiring some gigabrain understanding

[Absurdity]

That is exactly what people have been trying to illustrate since what, Shadowbringers?

Before that we had a nice balance of both fight and job complexity, but ever since then it has been more and more tipping towards one side, especially since Endwalker. Jobs become increasingly more simplified which means the complexity of fights has to increase to compensate.

The problem is that this only applies to high-end content, because obviously you can't add savage levels of mechanical complexity and their precise execution to every fight in the game, but this leaves a majority of casual and story fights feeling both incredibly boring and unrewarding to complete.

But hasn't that always been the case? Yes, story fights and content that is supposed to be completed by the majority of players have always been relatively simple, but you had the jobs to make up for it.

[Lyth]

ARR was probably the hardest expansion, given that the playerbase had only been playing the game for months rather than ten years. If you could go back in time and see your past self play, you'd probably be shocked at how poorly you used to play the game back then. And then you'd realize that you simply became better faster than the game became harder. The Warcraft playerbase was all about 'back in Vanilla' until players could actually re-experience it for themselves.

Anything that a player tries to highlight as 'rotational complexity' really isn't. This game is completely scripted down to the GCD. The challenge is never the execution, because MMOs hands down have the lowest mechanical skill ceiling of any game genre outside of turn-based strategy games. The challenge is the puzzle that you have to solve on each new fight on the optimal sequence of button presses and positioning. And that's where the real fun is.

[Shurrikhan]

When you try and bring everything together and take into account every detail, it isn't a simple question to ask. However, since the initial comment was just, which one has more positionals, then all that matters is, is this GCD a positional or not, forgoing any deeper questions that might arise by digging deeper.

Fair enough. It just felt like a question best taken in spirit than by the letter. Else you end up with an answer that's equally useless, such as in noting that BLM has the least average raw potency of any job (because raw potency doesn't factor in Astral Fire's whopping 80% damage bonus).

Anything that a player tries to highlight as 'rotational complexity' really isn't. This game is completely scripted down to the GCD. The challenge is never the execution, because MMOs hands down have the lowest mechanical skill ceiling of any game genre outside of turn-based strategy games.

Are we really making the case here that there's zero increase in execution complexity in going from, say, a WHM's or DNC's dummy rotation to a NIN's?

The challenge is the puzzle that you have to solve on each new fight on the optimal sequence of button presses and positioning. And that's where the real fun is.

But since Shadowbringers, only some 2 to 5 jobs even make alterations to their "sequences of button-presses" based on the given fight. Positioning, sure, but that's largely it. And if the difference between having to make fight-specific alterations or not isn't "complexity" anyways... then what puzzle is there?

If there is an actual difference in how long it takes to get that sequence down and/or whether one actually "solves the puzzle" to varies that sequence with different fights, that is what most people would call "complexity." Does that make particular job here all that complex? In any sort of absolute terms, no, but there are certainly differences.

And looking up which rotation to use for each fight at a given GCD probably still isn't going to be often failed or made a significant bottleneck... as just actually still doing that rotation perfectly while everything else is going off. The (difficulty of) execution does make a difference.