Please stop removing Damage Over Time effects from every job, add more complexity

[Shurrikhan]

Keeping up DoTs isn't actually engaging, though. It's busy work. I dislike playing (most) classes with DoTs for the same reason I mostly dislike playing melee: Busywork upkeep timers.

As compared to...? The blank sheet of 'hit anything at any time'? Keeping solely to the far more rigid timers of combos?

My personal hope is that in streamlining/simplifying how tanks play, they'll be able to then create more engaging scenarios come 7.x.

Except as kits have been simplified, contextual tanking gameplay has also/likewise been simplified. There's not just less to do now against a striking dummy; there's less, too, to do specific to any given modern fight.

[Almandaragal]

As compared to...? The blank sheet of 'hit anything at any time'? Keeping solely to the far more rigid timers of combos?

As compared to a little more flexibility in how one can handle the current situation, or even just other little things. Over time, I've realized that it wasn't positionals that annoyed me on melee so much (at least, in their minimal presence as they are now), but the debuff timers. As noted in the next paragraph, I enjoy things like the leeway RDM provides in terms of not absolutely requiring that the burst be used immediately because there's enough gauge to have overflow without capping. Granted, I don't do the highest levels of encounter, so that may not be as present there. However, in the vast majority of content, a little leeway is something I find far more enjoyable than hitting a random button or weaker combo just to upkeep a timer.

Except as kits have been simplified, contextual tanking gameplay has also/likewise been simplified. There's not just less to do now against a striking dummy; there's less, too, to do specific to any given modern fight.

I mean, the literal very next words in that post that were removed were "I'm not holding my breath [...]", indicating that I wasn't specifically expecting it despite the hope. I also mention, later in said same sentence, that some groundwork does need to be laid before you can typically do massive overhauls. Do I expect that that is where they're going? Unfortunately not. The job complexity concerns definitely need to continue to be brought up so that SE understands that not every job needs to be as simple as most of them currently are. I personally just don't really find DoT management to be the way to go about it. Rather, I don't find it engaging, merely annoying.

[Deceptus]

DoTs are being removed because the system simply can't handle them. It has a maximum that can be applied to any boss at any time (mostly affected in 24 man raids.

[Fryfor]

Paladin's dot was basically not real and didn't add anything the job, really. With annoying skill speeds it made Fight of Flight snapshotting extra obnoxious as well. Ask me how long within a 10 minute timer you actually pressed Goring Blade in a way that was 'interesting' past doing your rotation normally. I think over an 18 minute encounter when I did DSR, I probably hit it >15-16 times total. It's not as huge as you think it is, and was a deterrent to this job ever being a viable choice to other tanks without feeling like you're trolling your teammates. I still did it though. And I think this is a fine change.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think the issue is not necessarily 'they are removing dots from PLD', it's the possibility that 'they are removing dots (a source of some complexity*), and not adding any other form of complexity in its place, thereby making the class less satisfying to master'.

*level of complexity perceived varies depending on player skill

If they remove the DOT from Goring, but have something that would be interesting to spreadsheet in it's place (ie, maybe the idea i had somewhere of actually having MP management involved), then I don't think it'd be so badly received. The reason everyone's acting like the sky is gonna fall, is because with SE, the sky HAS fallen in the past, several times. 4.2 WAR, 5.0 DRK, 5.0 MCH and 6.0 SMN, all had complexity removed under the guise of 'it is more streamlined to play now'. I think the only 'rework' they got right was NIN, and that's only because clipping your GCD with every Raiton felt awful. Even then, some people think it was bad. It did remove Shadow Fang as a 'keep this up 100%' and turned it into 'press it in trick lmao', so I can see why

So we just have to wait till the patch is live to get the pitchforks out, because SE thinks that by keeping the details secret until patch goes live, it stops people from getting complain-y about the changes. No, SE, it means people get complain-y about what they THINK the changes are, and you're withholding the details that would put the doomsaying to rest. Just release the full details like the old days, and if people want to doom and gloom about potencies, let them. It's not like the doom and glooming would get a change pushed in the gap between preliminary patch notes and patch going live, so why would it matter?

[HyperiusUltima]

I think the issue is not necessarily 'they are removing dots from PLD', it's the possibility that 'they are removing dots (a source of some complexity*), and not adding any other form of complexity in its place, thereby making the class less satisfying to master'.

*level of complexity perceived varies depending on player skill

If they remove the DOT from Goring, but have something that would be interesting to spreadsheet in it's place (ie, maybe the idea i had somewhere of actually having MP management involved), then I don't think it'd be so badly received. The reason everyone's acting like the sky is gonna fall, is because with SE, the sky HAS fallen in the past, several times. 4.2 WAR, 5.0 DRK, 5.0 MCH and 6.0 SMN, all had complexity removed under the guise of 'it is more streamlined to play now'. I think the only 'rework' they got right was NIN, and that's only because clipping your GCD with every Raiton felt awful. Even then, some people think it was bad. It did remove Shadow Fang as a 'keep this up 100%' and turned it into 'press it in trick lmao', so I can see why

So we just have to wait till the patch is live to get the pitchforks out, because SE thinks that by keeping the details secret until patch goes live, it stops people from getting complain-y about the changes. No, SE, it means people get complain-y about what they THINK the changes are, and you're withholding the details that would put the doomsaying to rest. Just release the full details like the old days, and if people want to doom and gloom about potencies, let them. It's not like the doom and glooming would get a change pushed in the gap between preliminary patch notes and patch going live, so why would it matter?

They hid those notes because back in the day there was a lot of criticism being thrown at SE over WHM and Lilies, which were a piss poor implementation during that time in Stormblood. What this did was put a lot of pressure on the team and reduced morale to an extent, so to keep that from happening they started hiding the notes until patch day so that the team wouldn't feel like their work was for naught because it didn't satisfy the player.

When you present a meal, and a person is dissatisfied with it even though you did your absolute best to make it enjoyable, it really hurts a person. This can then drive the person to not perform as well throughout a shift if it was a major change. If anything, I think most people were whining about SCH not having Energy Drain, WHM Lilies being horrible, and other jobs like MCH having ping issues that haven't been addressed. If we let them release them like they did back then, it's bound to come back because there are people who will read deep into the patch notes and then cry on the forums about X or Y because their job wasn't touched or their job was done wrong(which I bet a lot of PLD is going to cry about the next patch coming on the 10th).

[ForteNightshade]

They hid those notes because back in the day there was a lot of criticism being thrown at SE over WHM and Lilies, which were a piss poor implementation during that time in Stormblood. What this did was put a lot of pressure on the team and reduced morale to an extent, so to keep that from happening they started hiding the notes until patch day so that the team wouldn't feel like their work was for naught because it didn't satisfy the player.

When you present a meal, and a person is dissatisfied with it even though you did your absolute best to make it enjoyable, it really hurts a person. This can then drive the person to not perform as well throughout a shift if it was a major change. If anything, I think most people were whining about SCH not having Energy Drain, WHM Lilies being horrible, and other jobs like MCH having ping issues that haven't been addressed. If we let them release them like they did back then, it's bound to come back because there are people who will read deep into the patch notes and then cry on the forums about X or Y because their job wasn't touched or their job was done wrong(which I bet a lot of PLD is going to cry about the next patch coming on the 10th).

It wasn't White Mage that caused that shift but Samurai back in 5.1. Yoshida specifically said they were lowering the potencies of some abilities because of adjustments made to others. Naturally, some people jumped to conclusions and screamed how Samurai was nerfed when it did exactly 0.1% less damage. The next LL prompted Yoshida to say they weren't be releasing potencies until the official patch notes.

Now I do think your assessment was a factor in their decision. Although, that is purely conjecture. Either way, it was a huge overcorrection because a small handful of fools couldn't read.

[RyuDragnier]

Now I do think your assessment was a factor in their decision. Although, that is purely conjecture. Either way, it was a huge overcorrection because a small handful of fools couldn't read.

It was more than that, as (if I remember right) the dev team were getting actual death threats by players in Japan from the potency changes released. You think NA players can be bad, JP players are worse about things like this.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

I think the issue is not necessarily 'they are removing dots from PLD', it's the possibility that 'they are removing dots (a source of some complexity*), and not adding any other form of complexity in its place, thereby making the class less satisfying to master'.

This, honestly. Goring being a DoT has absolutely no bearing on how PLD's kit works at all. Goring could literally be changed to a weaponskill that did all its potency upfront on a 21s CD and PLD's kit would function the exact same way. The DoT itself is arbitrary, as PLD has zero interaction with it in any meaningful way, compared to the likes of 4.0 BRD or pre-6.0 SMN. Circle is even worse when the recast timer is longer than the DoT meaning there's literally zero management. Even I personally think every tank DoT is pointless to have because they all have zero interactivity with their respective kits (LS being the one exception, if you constitute it as a DoT) and agree with them stripping the PLD DoTs, so long as they replace it with something interesting. (Which to give them credit, this divine might does have potential depending on how it works.)

PLD's identity has always been more about weaving between multiple combos based on certain criteria, something that they can still easily achieve without DoTs if they so desire. People are just worried whatever they add in its place won't be as interesting.

[magitekLuna]

sadly slowly all classes be down to simply a set of 3-4 singe target damage and 2-3 aoe. each will have the buffs as well. this be made so the BOTS the let " the most important solo players" use to be "good" and so the good players that can use more that a simple 1 2 3 4 "combo" wont fell good.