Scale back Critical Hit

[Amenara]

I think the bigger issue is that secondary stats are pretty awful and need a redesign to make other options compelling. When your secondary stats for everyone are crit > everything else you have messed that one up. Good issue to bring up regardless.

[HyperiusUltima]

I think the bigger issue is that secondary stats are pretty awful and need a redesign to make other options compelling. When your secondary stats for everyone are crit > everything else you have messed that one up. Good issue to bring up regardless.

And that's where we need to look at the functionality of stats. Direct Hit is the second best stat in the game next to Determination, as DH provides a chance of dealing 25% more damage and Determination raises your damage floor and healing done. Critical Hit infinitely scales upward in terms of the rate it can proc and the damage it can deal.

If we're to look at stats as a whole, there are a few stats to consider reworking:

Tenacity - Tank-only stat that reduces damage taken. It reduces damage taken very, VERY slightly, and only slightly raises damage done. Not a good stat to invest into.
Piety - A stat that Healers are familiar with, they typically only want to reach a certain piety(even if that Piety is 0 on gear and melds) to be able to handle their MP Economy effectively.
Skill/Spell Speed - A stat that determines your GCD. Definitely needs looking at, as its only purpose is to enforce certain GCD tiers and not provide much else. It's been the bane of some jobs' existence as well.

[Amenara]

And that's where we need to look at the functionality of stats. Direct Hit is the second best stat in the game next to Determination, as DH provides a chance of dealing 25% more damage and Determination raises your damage floor and healing done. Critical Hit infinitely scales upward in terms of the rate it can proc and the damage it can deal.

If we're to look at stats as a whole, there are a few stats to consider reworking:

Tenacity - Tank-only stat that reduces damage taken. It reduces damage taken very, VERY slightly, and only slightly raises damage done. Not a good stat to invest into.
Piety - A stat that Healers are familiar with, they typically only want to reach a certain piety(even if that Piety is 0 on gear and melds) to be able to handle their MP Economy effectively.
Skill/Spell Speed - A stat that determines your GCD. Definitely needs looking at, as its only purpose is to enforce certain GCD tiers and not provide much else. It's been the bane of some jobs' existence as well.

I think I remember reading somewhere about Yoshida wanting to redesign secondaries at some point but I am not sure where he talked about it. I agree, Tenacity is a junk stat because of how poorly it scales and how little the damage reduction matters with the biggest concern being tank busters instead of steady damage throughout a fight along with healers being very strong in the healing department. I wish there was a way to make skill speed akin to haste stat in FFXI, but unfortunately that would require a major combat rework to make auto-attacks more impactful and have a lot more of your skills CDs affected by the stat (bringing us closer to WoW combat I guess :/ ). Piety is more or less a junk stat I imagine got implemented because the people who redesigned substats in ShB ran out of ideas and if I had to guess and expected MP economy to matter at some level.

[HyperiusUltima]

I think I remember reading somewhere about Yoshida wanting to redesign secondaries at some point but I am not sure where he talked about it. I agree, Tenacity is a junk stat because of how poorly it scales and how little the damage reduction matters with the biggest concern being tank busters instead of steady damage throughout a fight along with healers being very strong in the healing department. I wish there was a way to make skill speed akin to haste stat in FFXI, but unfortunately that would require a major combat rework to make auto-attacks more impactful and have a lot more of your skills CDs affected by the stat (bringing us closer to WoW combat I guess :/ ). Piety is more or less a junk stat I imagine got implemented because the people who redesigned substats in ShB ran out of ideas and if I had to guess and expected MP economy to matter at some level.

Piety's been here for quite a while, actually - since inception. Its use hasn't changed at all, other than just the amount of MP regenerated from it. It used to raise your MP ceiling, I think, back in Heavensward and ARR when it actually mattered. Now that it doesn't matter as much due to capping at 10k MP for all jobs, it is a junk stat as you say - but some healer builds still need it to an extent to make sure they don't run OoM in a raid setting, particularly Savage or Ultimate.

[Raven2014]

I think I remember reading somewhere about Yoshida wanting to redesign secondaries at some point but I am not sure where he talked about it. I agree, Tenacity is a junk stat because of how poorly it scales and how little the damage reduction matters with the biggest concern being tank busters instead of steady damage throughout a fight along with healers being very strong in the healing department. I wish there was a way to make skill speed akin to haste stat in FFXI, but unfortunately that would require a major combat rework to make auto-attacks more impactful and have a lot more of your skills CDs affected by the stat (bringing us closer to WoW combat I guess :/ ). Piety is more or less a junk stat I imagine got implemented because the people who redesigned substats in ShB ran out of ideas and if I had to guess and expected MP economy to matter at some level.

The issue with Tenacity is two fold:

First problem, tank has too many defensive CD already, and all the TB mechanic has always been about them using their CD correctly to survive. Tenacity never really played a role in determining whether the tank live or die to a buster.

That leave Tenacity as a damage reduction stat is only meaningful for AOE and Auto attack. Tank pretty much just shrug off the former, and auto-attack come down to one thing: how often does a healer has to heal you for auto? Basically, it needs to reduce the damage from auto enough that it will save the healer one single target heal. The issue is ... healer's single heal are very strong, so the damage reduction have to be massive as well, otherwise all it does it adds overheal on the healer, which is the second problem.

Frankly the tank design in FF14 does not really lend itself to a passive "tank" stat. Pretty much all of their defensive cool down are duration base instead of hit base (like TBN). For example, in dungeon, with proper CD tank can have almost have 100% up time on their mit unless the DPS is really bad, and thus passive damage reduction is negligible.

[Amenara]

The issue with Tenacity is two fold:

First problem, tank has too many defensive CD already, and all the TB mechanic has always been about them using their CD correctly to survive. Tenacity never really played a role in determining whether the tank live or die to a buster.

That leave Tenacity as a damage reduction stat is only meaningful for AOE and Auto attack. Tank pretty much just shrug off the former, and auto-attack come down to one thing: how often does a healer has to heal you for auto? Basically, it needs to reduce the damage from auto enough that it will save the healer one single target heal. The issue is ... healer's single heal are very strong, so the damage reduction have to be massive as well, otherwise all it does it adds overheal on the healer, which is the second problem.

Frankly the tank design in FF14 does not really lend itself to a passive "tank" stat. Pretty much all of their defensive cool down are duration base instead of hit base (like TBN). For example, in dungeon, with proper CD tank can have almost have 100% up time on their mit unless the DPS is really bad, and thus passive damage reduction is negligible.

100% agree, and that's not even talking about self-healing on tanks. All of this is kind of why I'd prefer they just go back to the drawing board when it comes to secondary stats since it looks like they are just going to double down on current combat design and not change that.

[baklava151]

That leave Tenacity as a damage reduction stat is only meaningful for AOE and Auto attack. Tank pretty much just shrug off the former, and auto-attack come down to one thing: how often does a healer has to heal you for auto? Basically, it needs to reduce the damage from auto enough that it will save the healer one single target heal. The issue is ... healer's single heal are very strong, so the damage reduction have to be massive as well, otherwise all it does it adds overheal on the healer, which is the second problem.

Not only that but autos also just don't hit that frequently. In savage it always seems like the boss does like 3 or 4 autos before it starts casting something which stops autos, and often during mechanics (Snake and Centaur in P8S for example) there's just none going out. Still good to try to have a mit up for them when you can but yeah, not enough to want to stack tenacity.

[Themarvin]

The issue with Tenacity is two fold:

First problem, tank has too many defensive CD already, and all the TB mechanic has always been about them using their CD correctly to survive. Tenacity never really played a role in determining whether the tank live or die to a buster.

That leave Tenacity as a damage reduction stat is only meaningful for AOE and Auto attack. Tank pretty much just shrug off the former, and auto-attack come down to one thing: how often does a healer has to heal you for auto? Basically, it needs to reduce the damage from auto enough that it will save the healer one single target heal. The issue is ... healer's single heal are very strong, so the damage reduction have to be massive as well, otherwise all it does it adds overheal on the healer, which is the second problem.

Frankly the tank design in FF14 does not really lend itself to a passive "tank" stat. Pretty much all of their defensive cool down are duration base instead of hit base (like TBN). For example, in dungeon, with proper CD tank can have almost have 100% up time on their mit unless the DPS is really bad, and thus passive damage reduction is negligible.

Anything that adds stacks though... if the gear no matter what you do got some of it on then it can really hurt either other than a bit more protection and a bit more damage?

[Jeeqbit]

Tenacity - Tank-only stat that reduces damage taken. It reduces damage taken very, VERY slightly, and only slightly raises damage done. Not a good stat to invest into.

I disagree with the assessment that it's slight because it can reduce the incoming damage by 10%. The damage reduction is just about fine, it's just that we can get away without it. Even if it was 20% or 30% mitigation, nobody would care because we use Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron on the busters and have the defense stat and a trait that reduces damage. Tanks survive mechanics that everyone else in the raid can't, including ones that are supposed to wipe the entire party, so why would they need yet more mitigation? Additionally, once you gear up as weeks progress, the extra Vitality makes up for not having Tenacity by giving everyone more room for error. When you combine these facts with how it increases damage less than Determination, a lot of people will choose the piece with Determination on it over the piece with Tenacity on it.

If someone is of the mindset to help the healers as much as possible with the Abyssos dots at the expense of their damage, they already have plenty of reason to stack Tenacity, but let's be honest, everyone just goes to The Balance or their friends reiterate information from there to avoid Tenacity, so they will avoid it even if it's 20%, 30% or 40% mitigation. They can say "it could be useful for prog" but people will just skip past that, seek out a BiS list and use it.

Skill/Spell Speed - A stat that determines your GCD. Definitely needs looking at, as its only purpose is to enforce certain GCD tiers and not provide much else. It's been the bane of some jobs' existence as well.

Skill/Spell Speed increases the damage of dots/damage areas and auto-attacks as well. I don't think that this stat is actually a problem itself. The problem is that we have strict rotations that can be messed up by using it and there will always be a meta, and that meta is regarded as being crit. If we got rid of crit and dh, jobs without too strict or unaffected rotations might actually use it.

There will always be a meta stat, especially while we have crit and dh available to all jobs. Without those it would probably be different stats for each job.

[Amenara]

If someone is of the mindset to help the healers as much as possible with the Abyssos dots at the expense of their damage, they already have plenty of reason to stack Tenacity, but let's be honest, everyone just goes to The Balance or their friends reiterate information from there to avoid Tenacity, so they will avoid it even if it's 20%, 30% or 40% mitigation. They can say "it could be useful for prog" but people will just skip past that, seek out a BiS list and use it.

There will always be a meta stat, especially while we have crit and dh available to all jobs. Without those it would probably be different stats for each job.

I think with heals being so strong is the biggest mitigating factor for wanting Tenacity as well. If there is little to no need for healers to burn a GCD on healing the tank then why would the tank need more mitigation when they can stack more effective sub stats. There 100% is a meta, but the meta is dps is king which makes things that dont contribute or contribute less trash stats past any breakpoints you want or need.