Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

[Rithy255]

aren't people complaining that they want more complext jobs because they think simple jobs are boring? there's your reason
you play BLM because you think SMN is boring

No a easy to pick up and perform job requires less effort for the whole raid group to actually deal with, BLM is generally annoying to position, people would rather have a SMN, because it's easier to play, SMN should never do the same numbers as BLM in it's current state.

damage being the same on every job in its shared category makes no sense and never considers what other jobs bring to the table. The appeal in BLM is "BIG DAMAGE, PEW PEW" the appeal in summoner is "I press one button, have good mobility!" It's ok to have two jobs do two different things, perform slightly differently in terms of dps, Summoner is honestly is more then viable enough.

Feels like it just comes from summoners wanting their job to perform at blm levels instead of looking at obvious balance reasons of why it can't. but y'know all casters need a slight buff anyway imo (same with phys ranged)

[Shurrikhan]

Because the past is prologue and the FFXIV has an abysmal track record with re-works

• Healers in general
• Old Bow Mage Bards
• DRK becoming a Warrior clone
• Summoner
• Samurai

It's almost always 3 steps back, 1 step forward.

Only the one (bolded) among those results saw those leaps in such a discrete step, though. For most, it's hardly even a whole step at a time, and most of them circling the objective or at a diagonal.


Take Bow/Gun Mages, for instance.

ARR Bards: We don't like having lower rDPS on the mere basis that we have perfect, unrestrained mobility -- that usually ends up stupidly excessive anyways. It's nice that one or two of us will have guaranteed slots anyways, but we'd like some fflogs parity.
HW Devs: Okay, here's a way to dump your excess mobility for tighter rDPS parity. Outside of cleave situations, it won't make a huge outside of your CD burst, and we won't reduce your floor, but there you go.

The aim was fine; the issue was the tuning (including insofar as the cooldown of WM/GB) and, as so often in XIV, the quirks of the code/implementation (in that you'd be locked into the challenge-increasing state after consuming the cooldown [as per Cleric Stance], rather than locked out of reentering that state [as per BotD, Enochian, etc.]).


Similarly, had Tsubame-Gaeshi just been faintly more lenient (e.g., via a 5-second holding period, until one generated another Sen, until another Iaijutsu was ready to be cast, or even holding the most recently cast Iaijutsu indefinitely) and Meditation had reduced the Meditation stacks cost of the next Shoha instead of granting (potentially/likely redundant) Meditation stacks directly, later Shadowbringers would have been far better than Stormblood's -- more accessible, yet with greater total depth and visual appeal.

Critiques not getting into the fine details is how we often end up with "Just do more of the same! (differently viewed/defined by players and devs)" resulting in additions that actually reduce gameplay or "It all sucks (even if really just due to some very small, correctable issues)" and large reforms where none were necessary, let alone beneficial as responses to the problems most often mentioned by anyone looking at them more concretely.


Disclaimer: The (d)evolution of XIV healers are their own S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat-level mutant beast I neither wholly understand nor expect my sanity would survive an understanding of.

[Oizen]

No a easy to pick up and perform job requires less effort for the whole raid group to actually deal with, BLM is generally annoying to position, people would rather have a SMN, because it's easier to play, SMN should never do the same numbers as BLM in it's current state.

damage being the same on every job in its shared category makes no sense and never considers what other jobs bring to the table. The appeal in BLM is "BIG DAMAGE, PEW PEW" the appeal in summoner is "I press one button, have good mobility!" It's ok to have two jobs do two different things, perform slightly differently in terms of dps, Summoner is honestly is more then viable enough.

Feels like it just comes from summoners wanting their job to perform at blm levels instead of looking at obvious balance reasons of why it can't. but y'know all casters need a slight buff anyway imo (same with phys ranged)

Playing with BLM players is obnoxious compared to any other DPS, and its not even worth the payoff. The job likely wont be touched due to the favortism problem though

[Melethron123]

No a easy to pick up and perform job requires less effort for the whole raid group to actually deal with, BLM is generally annoying to position, people would rather have a SMN, because it's easier to play, SMN should never do the same numbers as BLM in it's current state.

damage being the same on every job in its shared category makes no sense and never considers what other jobs bring to the table. The appeal in BLM is "BIG DAMAGE, PEW PEW" the appeal in summoner is "I press one button, have good mobility!" It's ok to have two jobs do two different things, perform slightly differently in terms of dps, Summoner is honestly is more then viable enough.

Feels like it just comes from summoners wanting their job to perform at blm levels instead of looking at obvious balance reasons of why it can't. but y'know all casters need a slight buff anyway imo (same with phys ranged)

then tell the people asking for more job complexity to stop complaining about jobs being simple

[Rithy255]

then tell the people asking for more job complexity to stop complaining about jobs being simple

You can't simplify mobility on summoner unless you want it to hard cast and play like blm.

I'm fine if they gave SMN more complexity but it's also fine to have a mix of simple and complicated jobs, simple jobs shouldn't do the same dps for less effort still.

[Melethron123]

You can't simplify mobility on summoner unless you want it to hard cast and play like blm.

I'm fine if they gave SMN more complexity but it's also fine to have a mix of simple and complicated jobs, simple jobs shouldn't do the same dps for less effort still.

it's fine if the simple jobs deal 1 less dps than the complicated jobs

[fulminating]

Historically summoner has been competitive with black mage, the highly questionable decision to nuke it and all complexity it as much as looked at has left the caster role in this absurd state. Black mage and summoner can no longer exist in the same niche without a major rework of one or that niche being conspicuously broken. Summoner being more braindead than red mage, the designated easy caster. Given past justification for inflicting reworks, it seems black mage should be next on the chopping block (low player count, modicum of skill required, been as it's been for ages, not fitting in with the 2min thing) but we all know it won't.
Each member of role - caster, ranged, punchy, healer and tank has to provide roughly the same utility (damage) as the others because there's no other metric that affects ease of clearing, particularly with the overreliance on body checks this tier. Summoner and black mage being such polar opposites in skill requirements means both deal the wrong amount, black mage being undertuned and summoner significantly over. 2 minute buffs have not helped this in the slightest, but I think it's more likely to be two things going wrong simultaneously than directly at fault here.

[Shurrikhan]

it's fine if the simple jobs deal 1 less dps than the complicated jobs

No, unless they're all doing so little that 1 less DPS could somehow offset the massively reduced reliability of the harder and more situationally-constrained job. Until they are both competitive choices for a majority of reasonably skilled but imperfect players, parity on paper / for the highest 1% of players simply means imbalance for everyone else, including even at levels over which one would normally be learning the harder job (but would then be largely barred from doing so due to more easier / reliable jobs producing, until perfect play, greater output than the harder ones).

We should balance risk to reward for those ambitious enough to learn harder jobs, if their vibe and challenge click with them. That means doesn't simply bribing anyone and everyone to learn them through overcompensating those risks (truly perfect play across any composition should be at least barely able to clear Ultimate, etc.), but it does mean providing enough to offset those added risks and allow the vast majority of players who would even consider the harder jobs to do so competitively, rather just the top 1% of players.

Edit: All this refers to rDPS, not nDPS. Please do not conflate them.

[Melethron123]

We should balance risk to reward for those ambitious enough to learn harder jobs, if their vibe and challenge click with them.

so if someone happens to think warrior has cooler aesthetics, theme, and animations than DRK, they should just be relegated to dealing less dmg because the devs arbitrarily decided jobs with more buttons should deal more damage? that sounds like a garbage design philosophy

and that's not even including the impact that latency has on this game. you'll already be performing worse due to the inherent delay on your actions, and the few classes you're able to play effectively (the ones with fewer OGCDs) have an artificial performance tax on top...

then there are people with disabilities who might want classes that have lower APM or fewer overall keybinds, etc

[FireMage]

it's fine if the simple jobs deal 1 less dps than the complicated jobs

It's not. SMN should be at the bottom with MCH. That is proper balance