Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

[Melethron123]

I agree. I don't think the game can afford to loose even more team play. The vocal minority is so afraid to be hindered by someone else and the perceived solution seems to be to take even more interplay away. With that mentality why do people even play an MMO in the first place? How about people play a single player game instead and let the rest of us have job synergy and identity.

And on top of that we already lost like I don't know how many RPG mechanics. Stats are bland, gearing is boring, only raw DPS matters, elements are only for looks, TP management is gone, the MP bar might as well go etc.

with that mentality why do you play an mmo instead of a moba? job identity and individually is much more than "what buttons you press". DRK identity is being an edgy emolord, warrior identity is being a raging berserker, samurai identity is doing anime poses, etc

didn't the devs themselves say this is a "ff game first and mmo second" (i heard it from someone but i'm not sure if it's true)

[Gserpent]

with that mentality why do you play an mmo instead of a moba? job identity and individually is much more than "what buttons you press". DRK identity is being an edgy emolord, warrior identity is being a raging berserker, samurai identity is doing anime poses, etc

didn't the devs themselves say this is a "ff game first and mmo second" (i heard it from someone but i'm not sure if it's true)

If they said that, it must've been several years ago. I think you could argue that was true in ARR and HW, but I think after Gordias they got so scared of repeating that disaster that they swapped it to "MMO first, FF after."

That, or they're assuming that MSQ is literally the only thing that matters. But idk if I'd even call it an "FF game" from that standpoint, either... most FF's aren't just glorified visual novels. You know? They were never the hardest or most nuanced games, absent self-imposed challenge runs, but the MSQ is now so safe and steamrolled that it really is basically just a visual novel with extra steps.

[ForteNightshade]

...

Once again, you are arguing against the literal description from FFlogs.

aDPS removes single target padding, but still rewards you for playing to AOE buffs. It also doesn't include your buff contributions, so this metric allows you to evaluate how well players are aligning their damage bursts with external AOE buffs.

Furthermore, neither metric is immune to padding. They both can be abused with the right comp under the right circumstances. Hence why both are valuable metrics depending on the job as some benefit more from aDPS and others from rDPS. Dismissing it as "worthless" because of two different comps is ignoring rDPS can also be manipulated. aDPS is meant to calculate job bursts within raid buffs while not contributing their own whereas rDPS is a better metric for jobs with buffs that benefit from said bursts. Which is why tanks tend to favor the former.

However, let's put all that aside for a moment and return to the speed kill examples I've provided. Both of which you've ignored. If rDPS is the superior statistic for tanks, and thus, accurate, why is Dark Knight over twenty times more dominate in P5S than Paladin when the latter actually performs better in rDPS? Out of the top 50 ranked speed logs, only one group isn't running a Dark Knight. Twelve of those groups (24%) have two Dark Knights. That is more than Paladin and Warrior's representation combined.

Now when we glance at rDPS, this extremely lopsided result simply doesn't make sense when the entire purpose of speed killing is to bring the most efficient jobs. At 99% Paladin is ahead of Dark Knight and roughly tied with Gunbreaker. At max%, it's actually ahead of all tanks. Meanwhile, when we look at aDPS under those same parameters, we see Dark Knight pulling away by 600 at 95% and a staggering 900 at 99%. In other words, the overrepresentation makes sense. So... what is this? Is the speed kill community just emotional and completely ignoring raw DPS because of established dogma as you put it or is your dismissal of aDPS completely unfounded and the statistics reflect that?

[Melethron123]

Now when we glance at rDPS, this extremely lopsided result simply doesn't make sense when the entire purpose of speed killing is to bring the most efficient jobs. At 99% Paladin is ahead of Dark Knight and roughly tied with Gunbreaker. At max%, it's actually ahead of all tanks. Meanwhile, when we look at aDPS under those same parameters, we see Dark Knight pulling away by 600 at 95% and a staggering 900 at 99%. In other words, the overrepresentation makes sense. So... what is this? Is the speed kill community just emotional and completely ignoring raw DPS because of established dogma as you put it or is your dismissal of aDPS completely unfounded and the statistics reflect that?

i'd bet a whole cookie that whoever is in charge of tank balance is tuning the numbers around rDPS instead of aDPS

[Shurrikhan]

rDPS provides a poor comparison between exploiters, always, because it literally leaves their essential teamplay component out of the equation. aDPS provides a poor comparison of buffers, because it leaves their essential teamplay component out of their equation.

If two jobs who always have more aDPS than rDPS have the same rDPS (others are more dependent on them than they are on others for rDPS -- so, an exploiter), probe further at their aDPS; you're not done yet.

Then you can say a NIN benefits by X rDPS by virtue of having a GNB present instead of a PLD, or a NIN benefits Y rDPS by virtue of having a SAM present instead of a DRG. It's a much more effective method of analysis rather than looking at a parameter that is completely meaningless without knowing the composition in which it was generated in.

The same result, from the opposite direction, is doable already, so long as one is cool with plugging numbers for a while. But both your suggested approach and that would require multiple steps until you find a way to fairly balance who gets credit for exploiting a buff; only then could you form a single metric.

In your case, though, by your logic, you'd need each buffers' run to have exploiters of equal or near-equal percentile for a fair test of exploitation; if you can't compare aDPS against (smaller / less impactful) deviations in compositions even when averaged over some 30,000 parses, why would you want data on ability exploitation that'd potential compare a 99th percentile GNB's exploitation of Chain Strategem among 5 other raid buffs to that of 9th percentile DRK's with only two other raid buffs?

Or, heck, if we're comparing theoretical bests anyways, just look at potency maps, where there is no deviation to be had at all.

When aDPS is looked at from the standpoint of 'percentiles', there is no consideration given to what group compositions were used to attain said percentiles. The result is completely meaningless.

When any form of DPS metric, even rDPS, is looked at from the standpoint of 'percentiles', there is no consideration of party mistakes (which badly punish buffers' rDPS), buff synergy, crit rates, etc. Why would the result not likewise be meaningless then?

If a dominant composition trends across a percentile, consider the rest outliers, and compare what you can within in. Then drop to the next percentile in which the pool of jobs expands and compare there. Repeat.

Regardless, you're going to find the same very easy means of comparisons: you can take the party logs (such that the composition is obviously identical) where the jobs you want to compare of similar percentile, and look at the difference between rDPS and aDPS of those jobs.

That is their degree of exploitation, and it shows a significant difference between DRK's and others' (especially PLD/WAR) contribution to the party's total (r)DPS. Whether that's worth doing anything about is a different story. I'm okay with DRK being the damage-focused mad-lad, so long as the other tanks offered something of reasonable equal value. I don't particularly care that PLD is not desirable for post-content speedruns. If that's to be the case, though, I want it to be at least as desirable as DRK (up to a small advantage over the likes of DRK, assuming the party doesn't specifically need its damage carried) in progression.

Now, that may require bringing additional depth to encounters. But there's been anything mutually exclusive between that, kit depth, kit parity, or anything else.

[Lyth]

...

This seems to be an analysis issue on your part. Yes, that quote says that it 'allows you to evaluate how well players are aligning their damage buffs with external raidwide buffs.' That's true, when you're comparing yourself with yourself. What it doesn't tell you is how well two different jobs matched with different raid comps intrinsically align with two-minute raidbuffs. You'll note that gains from BRD's rotational raidwide buffs are included, which have nothing to do with your burst alignment. You'll also note that there are no pretenses made here about this illustrating tank damage balance, or in how much additional damage is actually contributed to buff providers. These are just false inferences that you have made because you haven't bothered to take the time to read what it actually says on the tin.

I don't really think that you can say that rDPS is subject to padding on anywhere near the same scale as aDPS is, simply because setting aside single target buff jobs, the only way that other players influence your rDPS contribution is in what they do under your 16% uptime two minute buffs (i.e. individually, what's going to amount to 0.5-0.8% of your total rDPS). That's the same quantity that you're quibbling over, on the second lowest damage role in the game. What's going to influence it more than raid composition is being paired with players who keep dying during buff windows or can't maintain proper uptime. But that's a bit like saying that clearing a fight faster with a group of better players boosts DPS metrics at all levels.

[Payadopa]

Swearing is edgy.

And yet we had interesting job interplay till 5.0. We also used to have more interesting dungeons until the vocal minority declared having to spend 10 seconds longer in a dungeon is a hate crime. lol Granted, the fight design isn\\'t doing them any favours, but players are absolutely to blame for the sorry state jobs are in as well. The Balance discord is a testament to that.

[fulminating]

with that mentality why do you play an mmo instead of a moba? job identity and individually is much more than "what buttons you press". DRK identity is being an edgy emolord, warrior identity is being a raging berserker, samurai identity is doing anime poses, etc

Paladin has the gladiator and holy knight stuff, warrior had the drain hp stuff and offence/defence trade thing, dark knight had fallen knight and dark arts. Scholar had tactical poison mage and faeries, summoner had tactical poison mage and primal stuff.
There’s only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.

[Melethron123]

Paladin has the gladiator and holy knight stuff, warrior had the drain hp stuff and offence/defence trade thing, dark knight had fallen knight and dark arts. Scholar had tactical poison mage and faeries, summoner had tactical poison mage and primal stuff.
There’s only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.

as far as i know, they're not removing those aspects from paladin
if you're referring to healing by attacking, i recommend reading storm's path and raw intuition/bloodwhetting tooltips. they also have equilibrium, for even more self-healing
the DRK job quests still have the whole "fallen knight" stories, and they still use dark magic
scholar still has fairies
well, the job is called "summoner", not "poisoner", which is probably why they redesigned it into the current iteration

[fulminating]

Bloodbath was a marauder skill, inner beast had a massive hp drain effect ~300% or so.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the arcanist/summoner/scholar relationship in this game. Through how they played it was very clear that while they shared a starting point, they’d both developed into their own niche. Currently pets are nearly dead, arcanist has no capstone skill and summoner is designed for a nodding bird desk toy.

Ultimately it doesn’t matter an iota what they say the jobs are if they keep removing what makes them feel that way. Dark knight being a prime example for reasons that shouldn’t have to be elaborated on.