Dark Knight Megathread

[Elizasylen]

Dark mind was very good this tier

[Zairava]

Bumping this because I would rather not see this fade into obscurity with DRK in its current state of Warrior with more OGCD's since Shadowbringers (and making another thread about it really wouldn't help I imagine). Fixing Living Dead to not be garbage after 7 years and taking a bit under 4 yearsto make Blood Weapon give stacks to consistently get 5 GCD's in, despite being good changes, don't justify it, nor does it fix the identity issues. Doing some of the highest tank dps/absurd opener dps doesn't either.

So, let's review in depth.

Mp management and Combat: Before, it was something you had to actually watch and maintain. Especially the case in Heavensward, where Darkside drained it. While the drain effect was removed in Stormblood, you still had to spend it on TBN and Dark Arts. While this was the most spam heavy iteration of Dark Arts, you still had to pay attention to it because if you got careless you wouldn't have the mp for TBN or reactivating Grit.

But that's just what it is now with Edge/Flood of Shadow, right? Wrong.

Dark Arts functionality at the time already made the job feel different and more interesting; and particularly in most boss encounters, Blood Price wouldn't exactly be enough to recover the mp if you were careless with mp (especially as OT), and you would need to take time to build it up for using DA *or* TBN outside of Blood Weapon, so you still had to make sure you had enough for TBN, not that different to now. However, this was also easier at the time BECAUSE of blood weapon. It was on a 40s cooldown instead of 60s, and it also gave a haste so you used it more frequently for more frequent bursts, contrary to now where it's a borefest outside of every 2 minutes, Delirium was even on an 80s cooldown and gave MP AND extended Blood Weapon/Price by 8s/16s at the cost of 50 gauge instead of being washed inner release, so it was even better if that was coming off cooldown. Therein lies the feel of Management vs build-and-spend with MP via TBN and DA. The kit that's synergized. (quietus gave back mp as well, but that was mostly used in dungeons , obviously.)

TBN. This gave 50 gauge back, which felt more impactful because it meant it was a dps gain rather than dps neutral. However, I don't see them returning back to this unless they make it guaranteed after the duration ends, instead of just if it pops.
Darkside. There isn't much to be said. We don't even have to think about it since the basic rotation keeps it up for us if we aren't asleep at the keyboard, so it's a UI element that is borderline pointless because of it. As it was our dps stance prior, that's a more complicated issue about in general tank mechanics.

Living Shadow. Living Shadow is an overglorified DoT that feels unsatisfying to use. you press it and forget it, the UI element that displays the timer on it is pointless. Scourge at least was something we had to keep track of the timer on and felt fantastic to use every time. I'm fairly certain most of us would much rather have Scourge replace LS and be exactly how it was in Heavensward, using the UI timer that's currently used for Living Shadow.

Sustain: This may be a bit divisive, and I am among the people that don't mind how it is now but I can't exactly pretend it needs a small boost to keep up with the rest in dungeons. The return of Sole Survivor would almost surely remedy this.

Animations: If you went and took a look at prior animations DRK had if you weren't there, it feels criminal that they removed them. They felt much better to use than what we have currently, outside of the aoe combo, Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain because we still have those. Bloodspiller and Quietus are neat, but we use them so much currently they have largely lost their luster. Power slash felt better than Souleater, Scourge felt a lot better than Living Shadow, Dark Arts felt better to use than Edge/Flood, all by a country mile. Also blood price and sole survivor.

TL;DR: Review time because bump. BW and LD changes didn't make DRK not WAR with more OGCD's. MP management actually existed instead of practically non-existent, Dark Arts amplified abilities and made them feel better to use. Delirium had its own effect by providing MP and boosting the duration of Blood Weapon/Price (in stormblood. it ALSO would have fixed the BW-GCD issue had they just reverted either or both effects). Darkside is something we don't even think about and Living Shadow is press and forget and makes both of their respective UI elements feel pointless. At least half of the animations are underwhelming. The kit that was synergized felt a lot better to play and perform than a build-and-spend, press and forget, kit.

Expecting any sort of rework before 7.0 is hopeless at best, but I don't believe staying silent about it's current issues here will help in the slightest, either.

[Oizen]

DRK likely wont even see attention in 7.0 or later given that the balancing philosophy of this game is hyperfocused on how the jobs perform for exactly 1 week out of an 8month cycle where people are tackling very specific content for the first time.

And because DRK had a big number there, the only number that matters, its likely viewed as fine.

[Zairava]

DRK likely wont even see attention in 7.0 or later given that the balancing philosophy of this game is hyperfocused on how the jobs perform for exactly 1 week out of an 8month cycle where people are tackling very specific content for the first time.

Yup, 7.0 is the absolute earliest (and best time, realistically) to rework Dark Knight. All the larger systemic and general gameplay (i.e 2 minute snooze meta) changes happen on expansion launch.

Add on the across the board graphical upgrade we're recieving in 7.0, it would also be the best time to ramp up animations (and not just for DRK, either. I've already said that piece for DRK in that in my prior comment)

And because DRK had a big number there, the only number that matters, its likely viewed as fine.

This point in particular is an unfortunate one, because it could easily be the case. It should be relatively common knowledge the main reason it soared in this tier for week 1 and 2 is because the tank balance (dps wise) was, and potentially still is, skewed and poor. If DRK was still doing relatively as much damage as Warrior it wouldn't have been nearly as used.

That said, it further proves we should continue provide the feedback here and comment, if they do check the threads here, silence will only further let them view DRK's job design as fine as is.

[Duskane]

I don't see DRK getting a rework. Already we have DRG and AST confirmed a Ninja tier rework for 7.0 also considering how popular DRK is don't see it changing outside of traits that augment OGCD like carve and split,
perhaps even more "combo" ogcd like salted earth.

[Rithy255]

I don't see DRK getting a rework. Already we have DRG and AST confirmed a Ninja tier rework for 7.0 also considering how popular DRK is don't see it changing outside of traits that augment OGCD like carve and split,
perhaps even more "combo" ogcd like salted earth.

I generally hope dark gets a soft rework at least, I think if you compare SHB to EW viewing how many Jobs got reworks and SMN got a overhaul I feel like Dark knight was one of the jobs that got the least changes, DRK generally feels similar to SHB drk just a bit more busy, compared to the other tanks DRK really didn't get anything this expansion. I believe DRK also got a major rework from stormblood > Shadowbringers (I think I didn't play In stormblood). So it makes sense why they would want to wait on changes.

"High play rate" I don't know what you mean in savage or in general? In savage generally it's highly played because DRK/GNB meta while WAR is a niche easy pick and PLD's just a job you play for fun (It really doesn't bring much to a raid group currently) In general high play rate in savage is down to Popularity, Meta & Ease of use, I doubt DRK would be as popular if it did worse damage then Warrior.

Good Things dark could have added in the future: (my hopes for 7.0)
1. More Sustain, I think drk should get a slow overtime sustain, it doesn't need to be super powerful.
2. More "magic" attacks, DRK currently doesn't feel like the "magic tank" shouldn't need to copy PLD but it should have some identity with magic at the same time.
3. More of a gcd rotation, while it doesn't have to be "complicated" the basic 1, 2, 3 really just doesn't feel good during downtime, even warrior is more exciting.

Generally don't feel like they need to hard rework DRK but they certainly need to build ontop of what we got, I'd like boring stuff like your shadow or salted earth to be reworked.

[Zairava]

Snip

The high play rate is mostly referencing high end content but it was pretty widespread. Even with it topping tank dps charts the number of recorded Dark Knight parses were much on the lower end because of Blood Weapon and Living Dead. Living Dead in particular made DRK more of a hindrance because the invuln was actual dogwater. So once they got resolved, even with its current identity and gameplay issues, [some] of the issues that hardcore raiders and a noticeable amount of the casual playerbase complained about disappeared because it was no longer a pain to optimize. That said, it is most definitely brought to high end content almost purely because it's burst dps is absolutely ridiculous for a tank and that keeps it topping next to gunbreaker. If it wasn't for that dps, groups would either bring Warrior or Paladin because they, in this case, would bring more to the table. Paladin in particular brings plenty of party support in the forms of Divine Veil, that wings move I forgot the name of, and Cover, even if it gets memed on sometimes since they nerfed it in ShB, and clemency if you *really* need it, but ideally shouldn't. (Although this tier heavily favors DRK defensively from what I've heard)

As for the wishlist, if they were to earnestly move forward with current DRK and revamp it, this is mine.

1. Power Slash replaces Souleater, Scourge replaces Living Shadow as a maintained DoT. Scourge would add something to use outside of your bursts.
2. Improve the animation to Salt and Darkness. It isn't *bad*, but it is underwhelming. Or reduce the amount of OGCD's in the 2 minute burst phase to give it another combo action after it that *looks* and *feels* powerful to use after waiting so long just to press Salted Earth to begin with.
3. (seriously please reduce the amount of OGCD's we need to press during our 2 minute.)
4. The biggest one for me is make Delirium do literally anything else. Revert it to it's Stormblood variant, do *something* with it that isn't IR without guaranteed direct crits.
5. All DRK needs for sustain is Sole Survivor, that's it.
6. To tack onto 5, make Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain have a 30s cooldown instead of 60.
7. Make Shadowbringer an upgraded action to Flood of Shadow upon activating revamped delirium (see #4). Add another upgraded action to Edge of Shadow, it would be interesting to see what they come up with. each would only have one use until next Delirium and still cost 3k MP.
8. increase Blood Gauge gain somehow to make up for revamped Delirium if reverted to Stormblood iteration. Whether it's by a trait to Blood Weapon or added back to Salted Earth.

[Zairava]

I don't see DRK getting a rework. Already we have DRG and AST confirmed a Ninja tier rework for 7.0 also considering how popular DRK is don't see it changing outside of traits that augment OGCD like carve and split,
perhaps even more "combo" ogcd like salted earth.

To be fair, the Ninja rework was for the most just making it's mudras GCD'S and buffing their potencies if I'm remembering right. That core mechanic alone being reworked changed Ninja for the better. I have hopes covered by a blanket of caution for DRG and AST hearing it's more Ninja styled. Paladin other the other hand..uh..I won't get into. not the thread and we haven't even seen it yet. (Although, most of us can guess the direction it'll take.)

Anyway. You do make a fair point in saying it may not land in 7.0 due to it, but it could come in later major patches. That and DRK is popular for the aesthetic and the dps it deals out of the tanks. there are people that like how it currently plays, but let's not fool ourselves too much.

As long as they make the combo OGCD's work in a way that doesn't make the already bloated opener/2m worse, I'm for it. I made my wishlist above for whatever they do with DRK in 7.X, so I won't list the wall of text again

[Shurrikhan]

I disagree highly with giving DRK any kind of HoT effects it can put on others. Not because it doesn't need sustain -- I assure you, it absolutely does -- but because that's not the way the job should receive said sustain.
We are, after all, in a Final Fantasy game. Being able to put healing effects on your allies is the domain of White Magic and Holy Knights/Paladins; Dark Knights sustain themselves selfishly, with Blood equipment and Drain magic.
Not to mention that giving a cure potency to Oblation is just... turning it into Aurora. With extra mitigation, so Aurora+. Given that DRK and GNB already occupy parallel positions as "higher damage, lower survival" tanks, cloning Aurora is just begging for homogeny.

Instead, I propose DRK take a step backward and return to using direct "heal for damage dealt" effects. Take the 300p cure off Souleater and the 200p/target off Abyssal Drain, and just make them heal based on damage dealt like they did in HW/SB.
Not only is this significantly more powerful for a tank since we don't have the cure potency bonuses healers receive, but it would give a slight differentiation between DRK and WAR in terms of "life draining" discussions; WAR heals for a fixed amount whenever it swings encouraging you to be reckless, DRK only heals for what it drains with specific attacks encouraging you to be methodical.

This, mostly.

Though, since we have no way of increasing our Souleater damage outside of just receiving raid buffs, I don't see how it'd be any more deliberate in that particular example.

Moving the healing over to Edge/Flood or Bloodspiller/Quietus where we actually have control, on the other hand, would offer more of that "deliberate" feeling I agree would best fit for DRK. It still wouldn't make a difference between flat healing and damage-based healing, but it would at least allow for a more "deliberate" and conjoined spin on self-healing.

Now, if we hugely revised DRK's damage dynamics, such as by funneling things back towards (say, a more bankable) Blood Weapon or Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, then sure, Souleater would fit. It just doesn't currently offer any control to differentiate flat healing from damage-based healing.

_________

Granted, all that is coming from a "WAR isn't worth salvaging" approach. If we actually cared about revitalizing its own peak identity from (or as pointed to) within XIV, it's Defiance<->Deliverance balance/synergies would actually situate damage-based healing even better than any (extension/revitalization) of DRK's XIV themes would.

(I don't think flat vs. damage-based without means of influence actually makes a lick of difference, though, so that's mostly irrelevant for the time being. DRK could be given damage-based healing and lose it later, or they could both have it, or whatever else, and any good revamp of either job would still feel good... for any/all the other reasons the revamps provide.)

[fulminating]

Never mind sole survivor, make abyssal drain a 2.5 gcd spell again.