More Options for Character Growth

[Elexia]

prevent the game from becoming like XI where you need the perfect combination to even play.

In FFXI you didn't need "perfect combinations to play", those players were called elitist and lazy, any combination worked for any encounter as long as you had the basics (someone to keep the mob from slaughtering everyone, i.e tank, someone to keep them alive, i.e healer and someone to support, i.e rdm/brd/cor etc.) This holds true in every MMORPG, including new ones.

By the way, in FFXIV people already use "perfect combinations"...so uhm...whoops too late? You quote WoW but you forgot to mention how they've been tweaking the talent tree and basically getting rid of useless ones. There's no perfect system out there.

People absolutely love to state "FFXIV is a different game blah blah!" but always want it to be like every generic MMORPG that's been released in the past 8 years. Make up your minds, do you want it to be the same MMORPG or do you want it to be something different? You can't have both and I can guarantee if people want to play WoW they'll play WoW, not XIV.

Last time i checked WOW is doing 1000000 times better then XI. I would even go a step further and say XI is pretty much dead and far from going strong. You should give it a try, only the hardcore fans are still playing these days.

You should actually check, because new people are joining XI every day and when you're done butthumping Blizzard and WoW you'd know WoW is actually on the decline and has been for awhile, even Blizzard admits it's going downhill a bit, especially with their focus on Diablo III.

[Yves]

In FFXI you didn't need "perfect combinations to play", those players were called elitist and lazy, any combination worked for any encounter as long as you had the basics (someone to keep the mob from slaughtering everyone, i.e tank, someone to keep them alive, i.e healer and someone to support, i.e rdm/brd/cor etc.) This holds true in every MMORPG, including new ones.

By the way, in FFXIV people already use "perfect combinations"...so uhm...whoops too late? You quote WoW but you forgot to mention how they've been tweaking the talent tree and basically getting rid of useless ones. There's no perfect system out there.

People absolutely love to state "FFXIV is a different game blah blah!" but always want it to be like every generic MMORPG that's been released in the past 8 years. Make up your minds, do you want it to be the same MMORPG or do you want it to be something different? You can't have both and I can guarantee if people want to play WoW they'll play WoW, not XIV.



You should actually check, because new people are joining XI every day and when you're done butthumping Blizzard and WoW you'd know WoW is actually on the decline and has been for awhile, even Blizzard admits it's going downhill a bit, especially with their focus on Diablo III.

It wasn't always this way. Pre-80 ACP had two options: RNG heavy or SMN heavy. Sure, some people used the SAM/MNK 2HR zerg but that didn't work enough to make the tower climb when it had a 40% failrate (investing 3hrs into each battle gets old.)

XI was actually the primary game (in my eyes) that perpetuated the cookie cutter concept. Everyone remember "SAM of gtfo" and "loldrk/loldrg/lolpup." Or that RDM became the standard healer because of refresh and convert. This isn't a totally bad thing - it forced me to level every job all the way up and that gave me a great deal of enjoyment and misery at once.

The point is that the OP is looking for ways to avoid this and also trying to be helpful in a creative process. He isn't necessarily looking for concepts that lock people into different play-styles - he just wants to see some flexibility and variation and I can't see anything wrong with that.

[Elexia]

The point is that the OP is looking for ways to avoid this and also trying to be helpful in a creative process. He isn't necessarily looking for concepts that lock people into different play-styles - he just wants to see some flexibility and variation and I can't see anything wrong with that.

That was the point of the Armoury system and Job system, we're not going to get a game where you'll have a conjurer or white mage out tanking everyone due to progression path for example.

Things like this are great. It seems people are thinking XI didn't have this.

Did people forget about Merits? There was actually a great deal of customization between characters with merits, and while some jobs had a set couple of skills that were basically required, that just means a system of the like here would just need to be better balanced.

Heck, we even have a system in place that can be used for merit points... Acheivement Points.

When it comes to XI people forget a lot of things because it's an older MMO. Merit points ended up the same way as talent tree type systems ends up...there's always the "Expected" path that you'll have to take. No matter how much customization or choice you're given in an MMO, there's always an optimal or preferred build that people will expect you to do. This is true in every MMO I've played including the much touted WoW.

[Phobos]

When it comes to XI people forget a lot of things because it's an older MMO. Merit points ended up the same way as talent tree type systems ends up...there's always the "Expected" path that you'll have to take. No matter how much customization or choice you're given in an MMO, there's always an optimal or preferred build that people will expect you to do. This is true in every MMO I've played including the much touted WoW.

In XI there was still a decent ammount of customization between characters. Yes there were some skills that became "required" or "assumed", but that would just need to be avoided through balance. Some BLM would merit all AM-2, others would MAX Freeze and Burst. Some COR's would go with roll boosts, others with things like QD and that JA reset move. RDM I often redid depending on the LS I was in and what the other RDM's had. Again, I'm not saying it was perfect but as long as you make each possibility worthwhile it's a valid system. XI didn't do it perfectly but there was still some variety between players and I rarely saw anyone getting flak for something stupid, other than zanshin.

I'm mostly just saying; this concept isn't foreign to Final Fantasy and with some work they could get it working properly here.

[Onidemon]

When it comes to XI people forget a lot of things because it's an older MMO. Merit points ended up the same way as talent tree type systems ends up...there's always the "Expected" path that you'll have to take. No matter how much customization or choice you're given in an MMO, there's always an optimal or preferred build that people will expect you to do. This is true in every MMO I've played including the much touted WoW.

Yes it is true but the difference is that in WOW for example, your warrior can be a better Tank them mine due to the trees and mine can be better at DPS. In XIV your War will be the same as mine and i have to change jobs or classes to do something different. Also i am not implying by any means that White mage should be able to tank as that makes 0 sense, only things that do make sense.

[syntaxlies]

Yes it is true but the difference is that in WOW for example, your warrior can be a better Tank them mine due to the trees and mine can be better at DPS. In XIV your War will be the same as mine and i have to change jobs or classes to do something different. Also i am not implying by any means that White mage should be able to tank as that makes 0 sense, only things that do make sense.

you can improve dps and enmity +or - with materia.

[Onidemon]

you can improve dps and enmity +or - with materia.

That's the same as having better gear then mine. You War does not play differently then mine. Gear will always make a difference it is not customization. I want skills that make my War a better tank or DPS then yours because that is what i would prefer to do.

[syntaxlies]

That's the same as having better gear then mine. You War does not play differently then mine. Gear will always make a difference it is not customization. I want skills that make my War a better tank or DPS then yours because that is what i would prefer to do.

but couldn't i just get the same skill?

[Onidemon]

It wasn't always this way. Pre-80 ACP had two options: RNG heavy or SMN heavy. Sure, some people used the SAM/MNK 2HR zerg but that didn't work enough to make the tower climb when it had a 40% failrate (investing 3hrs into each battle gets old.)

XI was actually the primary game (in my eyes) that perpetuated the cookie cutter concept. Everyone remember "SAM of gtfo" and "loldrk/loldrg/lolpup." Or that RDM became the standard healer because of refresh and convert. This isn't a totally bad thing - it forced me to level every job all the way up and that gave me a great deal of enjoyment and misery at once.

The point is that the OP is looking for ways to avoid this and also trying to be helpful in a creative process. He isn't necessarily looking for concepts that lock people into different play-styles - he just wants to see some flexibility and variation and I can't see anything wrong with that.

You are actually the only person so far who understood what i wrote. Maybe because you read the whole thing and didn't do what some other pple here did and just picked up the word WOW and went into defensive rage mode.

Thanks, i appreciate it.

[Onidemon]

You should actually check, because new people are joining XI every day and when you're done butthumping Blizzard and WoW you'd know WoW is actually on the decline and has been for awhile, even Blizzard admits it's going downhill a bit, especially with their focus on Diablo III.

I play both games. Do you? WOW is in decline no shit, yes it went down from 15 mil to 10 mill as of nov 2011. That's about 100 times or more the player base of XI. But regardless i only mentioned WOW for its talent tree as it is an example everyone will know. So the only person sucking up to a CIE here is you sucking up to S-E because you have a hard time admiting XI is dead and would like to revive it in 14. Grow up seriously and research before saying things that make you look like a fool.