Paladin doesn't suck, 2 minute rotations just ruined combat

[Derio]

Dont see them changing the 2minute formula anytime soon. Especially since they are reworking PLD to make it fit and then DRG and AST

[Eisi]

Dont see them changing the 2minute formula anytime soon. Especially since they are reworking PLD to make it fit and then DRG and AST

Same. I wonder how much design space there exists under this paradigm. Really excited for the Paladin rework. I hope they try something bold and new.

[Sqwall]

Dont see them changing the 2minute formula anytime soon. Especially since they are reworking PLD to make it fit and then DRG and AST

This is exactly my point. Two min burst is here to stay, and going to such great lengths to change and adjust jobs is a telling sign imo. The older jobs are getting outdated do to the shear fact that the newer jobs have been setting the example for years now. It's no longer viable to have jobs designed with ARR, Heavensward, and Stromblood blue prints. Like it or not....savage and ultimate set the stage for how jobs are designed. When you have to perform at such high levels, your job has to just work under heavy load.

Design flaws are starting to show with certain jobs:

Monk - Pretty much nearly unfixable in it's original state and was the outlier for literal years. Monk was it's on worst enemy with RNG, and it's ridiculous amount of bloat that nobody used. Six sided star, tornado kick (pre ogcd), anatman, one ilm punch, stances, greased lightning.
Summoner - Complete revamp due to an incredibly punishing rotation that was probably worse then PLD is now. Summoner was incredibly strict and offered zero room for error.
Bard - Considerable changes from it's original iteration. Believe it or not...but Bard used to have cast bars and use MP. Was also damn near required for MP regen in some raids pre lucid dreaming added in Stromblood. Also had a TP regen...anyone remember TP?
Machinist - This job was incredibly niche to play...maybe more then bard. Was it ok...yeah. But then ShB came in and basically removed ALL RNG on the job. Relaxed it's burst a bit. Removed Guass barrel. Removed Ammo. Removed the TP and MP regen on automaton. This job needed a huge fix going into ShB...or it would have NEVER worked.
Dark Knight - needed a huge overhaul to stay competitive with warriors late stormblood reign. No tank could hold a candle to WAR dps in 3.0 and 4.0. DRK got a very unwelcome rework in ShB, but it is pretty one of the best DPS tanks. Go figure.
Astrologian - This job made HUGE changes in Endwalker...and it's FAR from perfect compared to the other healers. It's NOT user friendly. Has/had a steep learning curve for years. This is another Monk situation, and AST has lost it's direction. This will be yet another back to basics rework I'm afraid and be more akin to WHM eventually. Possibly something like, every 30 seconds a card is automatically drawn and added to your deck for you cast heal, AOE heal that also damages, and use 3 cards for a crown play that does misery level damage. The current AST is just to hard to balance...it always has been.

The list continues with PLD, DRG, and dare I say BLM. I'm honestly surprised BLM has made it this far with out incredibly drastic changes to it's core design. Maybe save enochian no longer needing to be used.

[Shurrikhan]

Even if jobs are Mostly meant to be burst jobs, it shows you can't have sustained jobs at all, which frankly is boring design, Everyjob wasn't as "bursty" before EW, even if they were pretty bursty. Every direction for endwalker job design has been "More burst!!!".

You can if you create off-rhythm events for which the timing of damage matters, because then one has the choice between

• holding (and thereby wastefully desyncing) a section of CDs,
• [If we returned to multiple timing templates] investing in an off-rhythm section (90s CD users among a primarily 120s comp), or
• bringing enough sustain to not care about the minor dps checks (though, those would of course siphon from major dps checks).

Or, more simply put, if you want multiple rhythms [sustained, 40s, 45s, 60s, 90s, 120s, 150s CDs... all of which naturally tend to coalesce towards a single dominant timing template for "synergy"], you need fights that need multiple rhythms.

[Shurrikhan]

^And that's why there should be no timed party damage buffs at all.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it is not...

That everything pushes towards synergy around a lowest common denominator (or, with less potential for negative tone, what all or what little is in common between job kit timings) does not require that we either build around a single template. Rather, it simply pushes constraints elsewhere -- to fight design. Granted, it is a far tricker constraint, especially when trying to remain accessible without being reliant on capped or near-capped gear.

Presently, the timing by which damage is available IS the timing by which damage is done, simply because there is no reason to hold onto CDs (outside of Radiant Finale), in turn because there are so few relevant DPS checks or other means of enticing that behavior. Give those reasons, though, across multiple timing templates, and suddenly (especially with a lenient enough enrage) putting all one's eggs in a single basket becomes a hazard. You start to see additional reason to take sustained DPS or especially flex (those like SAM or DRK who have highly bankable output) even if they don't maximize synergy; you start to see reason to dabble in multiple timing templates ("rhythms"), even if one may remain dominant for the particular fight.

The difficulty, of course, is in balancing accessibility vs. mechanical relevance, since now job viability would require both -- the brittleness of certain kits in attempting to recover desynced tools vs. splitting the comp vs. simply taking enough sustained to deal with all minor checks (without failing major or final dps checks), whilst keeping minor, major, and final DPS checks all relevant. You don't want players to be required to have pre-figured optimal ways of meeting the particularities of a fight via compositions, but you do want those fight's peculiarities to be relevant so that compositional selection doesn't just devolve to caring only about final checks and therefore investing only in the best set of synergies among bursty buffers+exploiters (which, to be relevant at all, must be tuned to outperform sustained dps in a perfected/optimal comp).

:: Note that this does not mean that every DPS check needs to be pass or wipe; you can have something charge up even the most lenient of resource-taxes --say, a big damn DoT or a loss to Attack Power & Offensive Magic Power-- that scales with remaining unit HP, boss phasal HP, "cast armor," etc., such that failure to meet a check makes the next one that much harder, without being an instant wipe.

_____________

This is exactly my point. Two min burst is here to stay, and going to such great lengths to change and adjust jobs is a telling sign imo. The older jobs are getting outdated do to the shear fact that the newer jobs have been setting the example for years now. It's no longer viable to have jobs designed with ARR, Heavensward, and Stromblood blue prints. Like it or not....savage and ultimate set the stage for how jobs are designed. When you have to perform at such high levels, your job has to just work under heavy load.

Design flaws are starting to show with certain jobs:

Monk - Pretty much nearly unfixable in it's original state and was the outlier for literal years. Monk was it's on worst enemy with RNG, and it's ridiculous amount of bloat that nobody used. Six sided star, tornado kick (pre ogcd), anatman, one ilm punch, stances, greased lightning.

These issues actually have/had nothing to do with the 2-minute formula, though, and little even to do with later day job design trends (beyond portion of damage that can exploit buffs; even portion of damage exploiting buffs hasn't much changed, since the modifiers were greater back in the day). Nor were they worsened by it. (See/expand below.)

While we couldn't hold onto a TFC specifically for raid buffs, we still tended to generate multiple within any full raid burst, so the banking margin was more the issue than the RNG when it comes to 2-minute meta play.
It took only 4 GCDs to get up to speed (essentially 3 in late Stormblood due to WT-RoW), so original GL wasn't uniquely slowing down raid burst.

Six-sided Star and Anatman, meanwhile, are just bad for their own reasons, and not even for the niche they provide towards so much as that they're both underpowered tools. SSS is tuned too low to be more than painfully niche for most content and Anatman's value usually falls to about 40 relative potency simply because it of its unnecessary constraints / lack of sensible additions (no Chakra generation). They're both well allocated tools; they simply need to do more.

The same could be said for old Tornado Kick. It was a partial (i.e., nearly tuned around PB) refund on potency lost to ramping up GL that could be spent early if one desired. It made perfect sense up until GL was (needlessly but not, imo, too harmfully) removed. (Also, it being oGCD is the old design. The GCD design, as an obsolete Blitz finisher, is the new.)

Similarly, One-Ilm Punch was never any issue, as Monk had more than enough AoE despite spending 1 in 3 sustained GCDs in AoE on single-target skills (ultimately just offering it a bit more focus targeting atop a fully decent AoE kit). Rockbreaker was tuned to do then what Shadow of the Destroyer does now, significantly more powerful than its competing AoEs (just one other in RB's case). It simply happened not to be well used even in what situations a DR-less stun might be useful because Monk was already strapped enough for TP (especially without wasting TFCs on Purification), since the devs could never be bothered to reiterate on that system itself before scrapping it entirely.

The same is mostly true of your other examples there. They haven't been left to dry due to the 2-minute meta or new job trends per se, but simply because of the removal of various keystone elements/systems/mechanics and players losing hope (or, becoming disillusioned) as to there ever being a place designed in for varied utility to see value.

[Sqwall]

Six-sided Star and Anatman, meanwhile, are just bad for their own reasons, and not even for the niche they provide towards so much as that they're both underpowered tools. SSS is tuned too low to be more than painfully niche for most content and Anatman's value usually falls to about 40 relative potency simply because it of its unnecessary constraints / lack of sensible additions (no Chakra generation). They're both well allocated tools; they simply need to do more.

The same could be said for old Tornado Kick. It was a partial (i.e., nearly tuned around PB) refund on potency lost to ramping up GL that could be spent early if one desired. It made perfect sense up until GL was (needlessly but not, imo, too harmfully) removed. (Also, it being oGCD is the old design. The GCD design, as an obsolete Blitz finisher, is the new.)

Similarly, One-Ilm Punch was never any issue, as Monk had more than enough AoE despite spending 1 in 3 sustained GCDs in AoE on single-target skills (ultimately just offering it a bit more focus targeting atop a fully decent AoE kit). Rockbreaker was tuned to do then what Shadow of the Destroyer does now, significantly more powerful than its competing AoEs (just one other in RB's case). It simply happened not to be well used even in what situations a DR-less stun might be useful because Monk was already strapped enough for TP (especially without wasting TFCs on Purification), since the devs could never be bothered to reiterate on that system itself before scrapping it entirely.[/HB]

The same is mostly true of your other examples there. They haven't been left to dry due to the 2-minute meta or new job trends per se, but simply because of the removal of various keystone elements/systems/mechanics and players losing hope (or, becoming disillusioned) as to there ever being a place designed in for varied utility to see value.

I was comparing the end game to the newer better designed classes to how outdated the old ones were in terms of shear playability. The ones that I mentioned were very strong candidates of needing rework.

[Lyth]

I'm not really sure why people have jumped on this bandwagon only now, but a focus on party based burst has existed for as long as Trick Attack was added to the game (i.e. October 2014). The only thing that has changed over time is that both the developers and the general playerbase at large have become more conscious of how important those buffs actually are. So individual buffs are less dominant and mandatory, and they line up in a more consistent way. You're no longer forced to bring the same privileged jobs expansion after expansion. And you're less punished for teammates' mistakes.

I do see some benefit in reviewing older jobs (and giving them fresher animations). There are some actions that are just clunky because nobody has scrutinized them enough over the years to make a change, Divine Veil being one of them. You don't have to break the entire job down and rebuild it to do so, though.

[Sqwall]

I'm not really sure why people have jumped on this bandwagon only now, but a focus on party based burst has existed for as long as Trick Attack was added to the game (i.e. October 2014). The only thing that has changed over time is that both the developers and the general playerbase at large have become more conscious of how important those buffs actually are. So individual buffs are less dominant and mandatory, and they line up in a more consistent way. You're no longer forced to bring the same privileged jobs expansion after expansion. And you're less punished for teammates' mistakes.

I do see some benefit in reviewing older jobs (and giving them fresher animations). There are some actions that are just clunky because nobody has scrutinized them enough over the years to make a change, Divine Veil being one of them. You don't have to break the entire job down and rebuild it to do so, though.

I agree. Personally I could go either way on 2min burst going, or raid buffs going. Either or but not both. Wouldn't matter to me. Sometimes I have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

2 min burst and raid buffs generally only REALLY matter in savage and ultimate. This is my opinion.

I have never called out 2 min in a PF EX fight or unreal. Never in a dungeon, but I do actually put forth a good effort to do my savage opener on every boss (more of a habit now).

So this whole 2 min and raid buff discussion is ONLY around savage and ultimate. Well I can only speak for savage as I just don't have the patience or drive to finish an ultimate.

The pros and cons of 2 min burst and raid buffs scales differently for certain jobs.

Warrior Pros with raid buffs in mind:
1 min burst
Easy rotation
Easy Opener
Virtually 0 drift as long as you hit Inner Release as soon as it's up.
No oGCD damage buff, sustained damage buff

Warrior Cons with raid buffs in mind:
Some savage fights have busy 2 min marks, tank busters, mechanics to solve
Sometimes have to triple weave mitigation (P6S is good example. Vengeance, Thrill, and Nascent with a synergy TB, which also have to cram in provoke or shirk depending, and also hitting inner release, onslaught, 3 fel cleaves, Primal Rend, Infuriate, and Inner Chaos....that's a lot of crap to hit almost every 2 min when party buffs go out)

Now with all that said DRK would have WAY different pros and cons. So would PLD and GNB. I know for a fact my OT DRK just struggles this tier with his opener...it's a lot to do leading into a tank buster right off the bat in P6S.

I'm just indifferent I suppose on this whole 2 min burst and raid buffs. I only notice it WAY more when I play PLD.

[Deceptus]

Same. I wonder how much design space there exists under this paradigm. Really excited for the Paladin rework. I hope they try something bold and new.

Sorry to be the party pooper but they won't innovate. Their history shows they will homogenize and simplify.

[Eisi]

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it is not...

That everything pushes towards synergy around a lowest common denominator (or, with less potential for negative tone, what all or what little is in common between job kit timings) does not require that we either build around a single template. Rather, it simply pushes constraints elsewhere -- to fight design. Granted, it is a far tricker constraint, especially when trying to remain accessible without being reliant on capped or near-capped gear.

Presently, the timing by which damage is available IS the timing by which damage is done, simply because there is no reason to hold onto CDs (outside of Radiant Finale), in turn because there are so few relevant DPS checks or other means of enticing that behavior. Give those reasons, though, across multiple timing templates, and suddenly (especially with a lenient enough enrage) putting all one's eggs in a single basket becomes a hazard. You start to see additional reason to take sustained DPS or especially flex (those like SAM or DRK who have highly bankable output) even if they don't maximize synergy; you start to see reason to dabble in multiple timing templates ("rhythms"), even if one may remain dominant for the particular fight.

The difficulty, of course, is in balancing accessibility vs. mechanical relevance, since now job viability would require both -- the brittleness of certain kits in attempting to recover desynced tools vs. splitting the comp vs. simply taking enough sustained to deal with all minor checks (without failing major or final dps checks), whilst keeping minor, major, and final DPS checks all relevant. You don't want players to be required to have pre-figured optimal ways of meeting the particularities of a fight via compositions, but you do want those fight's peculiarities to be relevant so that compositional selection doesn't just devolve to caring only about final checks and therefore investing only in the best set of synergies among bursty buffers+exploiters (which, to be relevant at all, must be tuned to outperform sustained dps in a perfected/optimal comp).

:: Note that this does not mean that every DPS check needs to be pass or wipe; you can have something charge up even the most lenient of resource-taxes --say, a big damn DoT or a loss to Attack Power & Offensive Magic Power-- that scales with remaining unit HP, boss phasal HP, "cast armor," etc., such that failure to meet a check makes the next one that much harder, without being an instant wipe.

_____________

Can someone translate this please? I assume you are saying that the pre-Endwalker model was better. If I understand this correctly it doesn't adress what I said.