Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

[Mithron]

Until then my happy ass will enjoy how rewarding BLM is to play.

Rewarding? BLM does less rDPS than all melee while still being behind SAM in aDPS. It's not rewarding enough, which is why I don't have as much fun playing BLM any more.

[Ransu]

Rewarding? BLM does less rDPS than all melee while still being behind SAM in aDPS. It's not rewarding enough, which is why I don't have as much fun playing BLM any more.

I don't really care about any of that. The execution of playing BLM well in savage fights is extremely fun and I embrace that challenge. I do believe SAM and BLM should always be at the top of the charts, but on a personal level I play whats fun and SAM isn't fun anymore with the loss of kaiten and changing attacks to auto crits. Keeping enochian up and making sure not to interrupt my casts and timing when and where to use leylines/triple casts is a ton of fun. Fortunately SAM had some casts as well so I was able to dive right into slide casting in certain mechanics as well.

[Flashy]

Rewarding? BLM does less rDPS than all melee while still being behind SAM in aDPS. It's not rewarding enough, which is why I don't have as much fun playing BLM any more.

No wonder the devs think SAM is fine in its current state. Because people like this think high damage > good gameplay

[Mithron]

No wonder the devs think SAM is fine in its current state. Because people like this think high damage > good gameplay

Damage is what determines "reward" in this game. Yes, you'll have fun on any job the first few hundred hours you play it simply because it's fresh and new and exciting, but when you have thousands of hours in different jobs, you look for mastery, and the only true metric of mastery in this game as it's designed is damage dealt. I agree that playstyle is much more important than numbers for job design, but both must be addressed for a job to truly feel rewarding after the "fresh" feeling wears off. Otherwise you will always have a nagging feeling of "I could be contributing so much more on a better job, but I choose to suffer because this is the playstyle I like" and that drains your soul over time.

And I'm avidly a proponent for Kaiten returning.

[Ransu]

Damage is what determines "reward" in this game. Yes, you'll have fun on any job the first few hundred hours you play it simply because it's fresh and new and exciting, but when you have thousands of hours in different jobs, you look for mastery, and the only true metric of mastery in this game as it's designed is damage dealt. I agree that playstyle is much more important than numbers for job design, but both must be addressed for a job to truly feel rewarding after the "fresh" feeling wears off. Otherwise you will always have a nagging feeling of "I could be contributing so much more on a better job, but I choose to suffer because this is the playstyle I like" and that drains your soul over time.

And I'm avidly a proponent for Kaiten returning.

This has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen...

I don't care how much dps SAM pumps out right now (mostly due to dnc changes). Nothing will change the fact that its a shinten spam job now with a wet noodle auto crit design that has made its game play incredibly boring. Not saying SAM was ever complex, because it wasn't, but the way it plays right now is horrid. I'm not going to force myself to keep playing SAM because it does "big dps." That's dumb. Do I think BLM should be doing more DPS? Absolutely. Am I going to go back to SAM just because BLM is lower DPS atm? Absolutely not, especially with the Yoshi saying the next patch will be buffing ranged across the board to adjust for the changes made to the larger boss hitboxes allowing melee to have basically 99% uptime which is part of the reason SAM is so through the roof right now.

And honestly, BLM dps overall is still fine atm and is in no danger of struggling to clear any content. Its only behind SAM in adps and ndps. Its rdps sucks because the job doesn't really fit into the 2 minute burst window right now and they don't benefit from the raid buffs the same way a lot of the melee do.

[CelestiCer]

Damage is what determines "reward" in this game.

I disagree... I can have 50% of my kit removed? and have Ogi Namikiri and Midare Setsugekka be spammable skills. Will I do high damage? Yes. Is it rewarding now? NO...

Like you said, the one true metric of mastery over jobs is " Damage " performance. That's also sadly the main factor a majority of players gauge skill through say FFLogs when there are a lot of other factors that makes a player " Skillful " vs " A few high numbers ".

The point you're making on something feeling Fresh? only makes sense if the old is either outdated or broken. What they did with Kaiten? was just unnecessary. And it also only makes sense if they replaced it with something which they didn't. Now have a nagging feeling of " it's just a Shinten Gauge " and like your words state perfectly, many choose to suffer this playstyle and it drains the player overtime. Of which I know plenty have quit purely over it.

I agree with you on Kaiten returning, but not for the same reason for Damage and Damage alone as it is the metric of reward as you put it. I wanted high-damage to be reached more sophisticated or complex, a hint of nuance to reach our high damage numbers ingame over Shinten spamming.

[Vencio]

I yield,

Just return Kaiten for crying out loud & be done with it -sighs- I fear for what future they may do to my PLD

[CelestiCer]

I yield,

Just return Kaiten for crying out loud & be done with it -sighs- I fear for what future they may do to my PLD

I agree. Helped some Paladin friends get through their 1st Savage fights this tier. Unbelievable achievements for new raiders, practicing rotations properly... only to have it all be for not when Square decides to change it all. I hope the upcoming patch does not negatively impact PLD players as Kaiten has done for many of the Samurai's.

[OdinelStarrei]

I yield,

Just return Kaiten for crying out loud & be done with it -sighs- I fear for what future they may do to my PLD

I know people have blocked you, and by responding I'm essentially bringing your post to people who do not necessarily want to see it, or frankly you/your trolling antics ever again, but again, as someone with no stake in the fight for SAM, here's a little sneak peak at what's going to happen to your job.

The very foundations of your job are going to be uprooted. They will keep token things, such as Clemency, and possibly a reworked Cover. However, the things that brought people to PLD, specifically, such as a simple 1 min, looping rotation for casual users, and an incredibly high skill ceiling with spreadsheeting for hardcore users will probably be deleted. Expect your magic phase to be moved from every 60 seconds, to every 120 seconds with increased potencies to force PLD to conform to the 2 min burst windows. Circle of Scorn may be deleted. The Goring Blade>RA>Atonements>Goring may see a significant shake up, either with the core GCDs or by a rework of FoF to attacks dealt instead of a timer, a removal of the ability to use it prepull like with Bloodfest/Infuriate, using FoF may just give you stacks of Atonement automatically, or they can even remove the physical phase damage increases entirely to put more focus on the magic phase being the burst cooldown, with no other damage increases allowed to keep the peaks and valleys consistent with other jobs in the role. You will conform to the 2 minutes, and you'll be lucky if you escape the "builder-spender" framework every other tank in your role is right now. Simply put, the things PLD mains like about PLD are not cohesive with 6.X combat design. And knowing Square Enix, they will still not fix the inherent problems with Block being unable to mitigate DoTs properly. You'll have to wait a few years for that one.

Unlike SAM, and literally every other job since 5.0 that has gotten a rework or ridiculous changes, you will actually get an explanation from the developers via the job guide page on why this rework was absolutely necessary, the aforementioned reason, breaking PLDs skeleton to force it into shape to fit into a design philosophy SE themselves developed. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, and your feedback, positive or negative, will go unheard for years at best. And just like every other time a job gets reworked, the people who played it will complain that "this isn't what they asked for, no actual Paladin main wanted this, just for tweaks to some of the problems" and "who is designing these jobs, why is there no room from improvement/skill ceiling?" And just like every other time a job gets reworked, people who didn't care about PLD before will all of a sudden appear and say things like "The rework is fine! Go play something else if you don't like it (ironic, since all jobs are now becoming the same)" and "Check the player numbers. Why are you crying? You are doing more damage???"

So worst case, you are going to have the SMN problem, where Square Enix will come in, pretty much delete your job for people who never cared about it as a job (identity, sustain rotation over burst, utility), like they did with my jobs (DRK, SCH, MCH, SMN, soon to be DRG) in hopes of reaching a new audience.
Best case, you'll get the SAM treatment, where at a casual level your job doesn't change too much, it just removes a lot of job specific avenues of self-improvement while dumbing it down. Note that this will not happen, because they have already clarified there will be "major rotational changes to PLD". ( I am not trying to say the things that happened to SAM were "marginal" or "good", I'm just giving a frame of reference for the scale of how reworks screw with things in the middle of patch cycles.)
What? Too negative? You'll have to excuse me, because when the track record for SE reworks is a consistent range from "I can tolerate this" to "Wow, this is actually miserable, and makes me want to switch jobs/quit the game" with only a handful of actual successes that push a job in a positive direction, I don't have a ton of faith.

My advice? Treat it like how I should have treated 4.X DRK. Enjoy it while you have it. And next time maybe, just maybe, try to have some empathy when Square Enix rolls up to another house with a wrecking ball. We still have another couple of jobs that need butchering for the next expansion.

[Ransu]

I yield,

Just return Kaiten for crying out loud & be done with it -sighs- I fear for what future they may do to my PLD

I hope they ruin it just as a slight towards you for all the trolling you have given us about kaiten.

I am uncertain what’s more irritable or perhaps feeling “unheard” that the Devs hardly addresses player’s concerns (given the specifics) that which is still plaguing the ongoing issues.

I could careless for damage/static numbers…it’s more alarming the constant removal of abilities & changes that creates a further didtrust & satisfaction with the game altogether.

I cannot deny to dare say our Devs are equally following WoW’s foot steps with the ongoing job/class changes & removal of abilities that some individuals had ultimately cone to be acquainted with…and this will happen to every job in the future.

The removal of job kits it’s far harming than being beneficial.

My last stance on this (I might be heavily targeted on it..) if it’s a “japanese cultural” trend in which whenever you dared question/build criticism you’ve insulted their “honour” which I respectfully find it staggering by far.

Through concens & criticism its how progress & development flourishes grows.

If such was the case, why then bother release the game beyond & outside of Japan?

All in all, whatever the odds, I grow tired of it,

Sadly it is the case of gaming decline & fall down altogether.

PS: I adore Japan & its culture; but I also dared to question & raise concerns.

The absolute irony of your post...