Please make Verraise accessible at level 12

[Mithron]

Job identity is not specifics in FF, it is generalities.

I just wanted to highlight and emphasize this classic example of FireMage being FireMage. Good stuff, always disappoints.

Should we talk about Sage in previous Final Fantasy games?

The "bUT tHoSe OlD gAmES fROM EntIrelY diFFeRenT tImE aND GenRe" is not an own that you think it is.

Sage is a difficult example but aside from their weapon, is a pretty decent attempt at making them fit in FF14's style of trinity roles. They want SGE to be a Healer role, so they tried to find a way that it can heal while doing damage since SGE is meant to be the "master of magic" in classic FFs with access to all the best Black and White Magic spells. Since they can't really give it Flare, Holy and Bahamut spam and want Healers to be lowest DPS, this was the best they came up with also pushing for barrier identity. It's not perfect, but it's still pretty neat to see how they made it work. When I play SGE with that kind of mindset, I have a lot more fun with it. I just wish healers had much more complex DPS rotations and at least 2 dots each, and potentially Cleric Stance stance dancing returning.

Stripping RDM of Vercure/Verraise would be equivalent of stripping PLD of all melee sword skills and turning them into Holy Spirit only, or removing BLM's 3 elemental spell rotation and only casing Fire magic. It would remove the core identity of their classic FF history. I play RDM because I like Vercure and Verraise being there on my bar and "viable" tools. The same reason I like taking RDM in FF1: jack of all trades, master of none, sword/shield wielding medium armor wearing low level White/Black magic casting well rounder who provides decent basic attacks, decent AoE damage, decent heals and always backs up my Knight for tanking if needed, my White Mage for healing if needed, and my Black Magic or physical attacks if needed while excelling in none of them.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]Stripping RDM of Vercure/Verraise would be equivalent of stripping PLD of all melee sword skills and turning them into Holy Spirit only[...]

Probably a bit uneven in comparison, because I do not think that Cure/Raise is as deeply rooted into a Red Mage as is general swordsmanship of a Knight / Paladin. I'd say sooner "a part of Knight" but certainly not a hefty bit of the core. RDM restorative magic is certainly part of it, but not as core as the general idea of being a Caster/Melee hybrid.

That said, I have a proposal.

Verraise and Resurrection, both imo can go. I want them both to shoot up in damage numbers so the devs can stop worrying how much they need to tax the damage (which they absolutely do).

In turn, the following:

1.) In preperation to point #2 and I bold this on purpose so you don't cringe before reading it properly - a "spell" that does basically "nothing", like Form Shift for Monk, other than prepping Dualcast. This is necessary to allow for the downtime optimisation to prep Dualcast as it is currently possible in downtime, while allowing for the changes on #2 to not impact this.

2.) Change Vercure from "Spell" to "Ability", changing the recast to 15s on three (3) charges, allowing you to weave Vercure in between. Adjust potency as seen fit.
3.) Replace Verraise with Vermedica (Ability) on a 60s recast. Idea is essentially an oGCD Medica II but with potency value within the range of Summon Phoenix's Everlasting Flight.

The interesting part of #2 and #3 is that they play hand-in-hand with "Magick Barrier", which happens to enhance healing recovery to those affected, especially the Vermedica. Vermedica also being more on demand than Everlasting Flight plays in similar leagues to Dancer with Curing Waltz.

Now, obviously RDM has a lot to weave, so it may be a bit of a challenge to get it all under the barrel, but so does a job like Dark Knight during large burst windows or Gunbreaker.

Why am I suggesting this? Because I fully understand the niche people want RDM to see in, and imo this would be the most sensible way for Vercure (and other things) to exist in Red Mage without either being too impactful or basically useless.

[FireMage]

I just wanted to highlight and emphasize this classic example of FireMage being FireMage. Good stuff, always disappoints.

Yes, I'm right, as usual. You shouldn't be surprised at this point

Stripping RDM of Vercure/Verraise would be equivalent of stripping PLD of all melee sword skills and turning them into Holy Spirit only, or removing BLM's 3 elemental spell rotation and only casing Fire magic. It would remove the core identity of their classic FF history. I play RDM because I like Vercure and Verraise being there on

This whole point basically shows you are either ignorant or a malicious liar. Vercure and Verraise if ANYTHING put RDM out of balance with its balance throughout the franchise by allowing too much White Mage stuff in it, which is alarming as it's a DPS

[MagiusNecros]

And specifically the White Magic that RDM is known for in the franchise are Cure spells. It's White Mage who exclusively use their offensive spell known as "Dia" (HARM in NES). Red Wizards can even learn Life, but only White Mages/Wizards can learn Heal (AoE cures). Red Mages can also learn Poisona, Blindna and Protect. By late game, Red Wizards are known for using Temper and Haste to buff the other physical hitters (Knights, Masters and Ninja), then using it on them selves for supplemental physical attacks (Thus Embolden). They can do decent AoE damage with tier 2 Black Magic spells on trash mobs, and if the White Mage/Wizard runs out of MP or dies, the Red Mage is there to backup with additional MP pool to draw from.

In FF3, Red Mages could use Aero spells like White Mages, but you didn't typically cast it much outside specific scenarios because you really wanted to conserve their MP for Cure and support spells instead.

You are dismissed

Good writeup. Historically Red Mage has only been able to cast mid tier magic. Holy and Flare gets an ok because the endgame Swords that are exclusive to RDM/RDW can be used to cast high level spells through the use of the Defender, Lightbringer, Deathbringer, Ragnarok. Most of these equippable by the Red Wizard but the spells could be used by anyone by using the weapon as item magic in battle.

So you actually have the spells Flare, Holy, Blink, Scourge, Death at your disposal.

As you say the Red Mage buffs the Party with Temper and Blink and then spams Holy.

Thus far RDM is a very true depiction of the job in the franchise even in XIV.

On the subject of Sage the Sage in this game has nothing to do with the Sage of FF3 which had mastery over all White and Black Magic. Which in XIV RDM kinda already does having access to Flare and Holy.

In XIV it's a shield based healer job with a heavy Gundam aesthetic and I think is a more original job for XIV.

Nothing wrong with original jobs. We will probably need more of them later in the games life.

[Mithron]

I'm just going to continue to ignore FireMage's obvious shortcomings.

Verraise and Resurrection, both imo can go. I want them both to shoot up in damage numbers so the devs can stop worrying how much they need to tax the damage (which they absolutely do).

2.) Change Vercure from "Spell" to "Ability", changing the recast to 15s on three (3) charges, allowing you to weave Vercure in between. Adjust potency as seen fit.
3.) Replace Verraise with Vermedica (Ability) on a 60s recast. Idea is essentially an oGCD Medica II but with potency value within the range of Summon Phoenix's Everlasting Flight.

I don't think non-raid damage buffing utility needs to be taxed at all. It's just flavor, and since it's not required in any fight, it shouldn't cause the job to have lower damage. I believe RDM's identity should be 3rd lowest DPS, not because of Verraise, but because they should be known as low personal DPS but high DPS buffing as their role is in classic FFs. Just above BRD and DNC, but below everyone else, which means buff Embolden and add more raid damage buffs as needed, and even up their aDPS if necessary. But it should be low.

The problem with making Vercure a free OGCD is that it might not be necessarily more fun depending on how it works. With many charges, you're gonna have to be target switching quite often to use them basically on cooldown to be optimal and may even take away from what a lot of healers want to do. It's not really very fun to constantly switch from enemy target to someone on party list to heal with Vercure then quickly back to enemy without clipping GCD, especially for controller players. While it sounds great on paper and makes it an actual usable button during combat, I don't know if it would be fun. I want Clemancy to behave like this (at the cost of 50 Oath), but I worry about how RDM would need to play to use it.

I'm not a fan at all of giving RDM a medica, as even in FF1 they don't have AoE heals. RDM does have access to Nul-element spells in FF1 so Magick Barrier makes sense. You can multi-target Cure in FF3 and beyond, but I mean I find that to be more of a healer/tank feature than RDM for 14.

Of course this is just me and my opinion.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I'm just going to continue to ignore FireMage's obvious shortcomings.



I don't think non-raid damage buffing utility needs to be taxed at all. It's just flavor, and since it's not required in any fight, it shouldn't cause the job to have lower damage. I believe RDM's identity should be 3rd lowest DPS, not because of Verraise, but because they should be known as low personal DPS but high DPS buffing as their role is in classic FFs. Just above BRD and DNC, but below everyone else, which means buff Embolden and add more raid damage buffs as needed, and even up their aDPS if necessary. But it should be low.

I think I gave my input in another thread on this, so I'm sorry if I ignore this for now. I simply have a different view on this.

The problem with making Vercure a free OGCD is that it might not be necessarily more fun depending on how it works. With many charges, you're gonna have to be target switching quite often to use them basically on cooldown to be optimal and may even take away from what a lot of healers want to do. It's not really very fun to constantly switch from enemy target to someone on party list to heal with Vercure then quickly back to enemy without clipping GCD, especially for controller players. While it sounds great on paper and makes it an actual usable button during combat, I don't know if it would be fun. I want Clemancy to behave like this (at the cost of 50 Oath), but I worry about how RDM would need to play to use it.

This issue affects essentially every job with single-target abilities that affect party members. Despite that, this has so far not really been a limitation for abilities such as these to be designed (tank single target abilities in particular) But I get you, so probably a reduction in charges + moving the recast higher to 20-30 seconds each (with higher potency to make up for it) might work better.

I think either approach seems fine to me, but the higher recast option may be nice in line with the amount of possible ogcds.

I'm not a fan at all of giving RDM a medica, as even in FF1 they don't have AoE heals. RDM does have access to Nul-element spells in FF1 so Magick Barrier makes sense. You can multi-target Cure in FF3 and beyond, but I mean I find that to be more of a healer/tank feature than RDM for 14.

Of course this is just me and my opinion.

Fun fact, this is often forgotten but FFXII Red Battlemage has AOE healing and strong single-target healing natively. Cura is an AOE spell with moderate power and Curaga is a single-target heal with a lot of power. They also have access to some limited Time Magick (Slow, Immobilize, Disable, Reflect) and Black Magic of course. And their own type was Arcane Magic, which was the dark-type spells and Ardor.

So I don't think RDM having a form of AOE healing is utterly far fetched.

[Archwizard]

Aight so, two notes:

To the thread title, I think RDM's high potential with Verraise as-is kinda supersedes the inconvenience of it being so late in level? Like, the impact of healers or even SMN having raises (which they still must either swiftcast or hardcast) is EXTREMELY different from the impact of RDM's ability to rez spam. It would make sense for RDM to have it at such a low level if the job had, say, a limiter on how often it could Verraise to keep it in line with SMN and healers, but that's just gonna lead to hard-nerfing the ability unnecessarily. (After all, most high-end content is balanced around the assumption you'll be avoiding raising where at all possible, so the boon it provides is mostly in easing casual play.)
Plus, classically, Red Mage gains White Magic spells at later levels than dedicated White Magic users. It would probably be the same for SMN if not for being conjoined to SCH.
And I think it provides a sense of advancement once you get significant spells like Verraise while leveling (especially when most of your alternatives are passive damage traits), which you might overlook if you already had it as soon as you picked up the job.

To the discussion of AoE healing: I don't think RDM should get some kind of Medica. Practically speaking, RDM doesn't need the extra button wasted on a healing spell, especially since the job itself is not focused on healing and the continued existence of Vercure in our arsenal is justified by its impact on our DPS (by means of giving dualcast during downtime or untargetable periods).
BUT! I can see our existing Vercure getting an upgrade to provide splash-party healing around the target (probably in an exceedingly small radius akin to the original Cure 3) as a means to boost raid utility during downtime without increasing button count -- "I can assist in topping everyone off in limited circumstances, and am in fact encouraged to, provided that it doesn't interfere with my damage-dealing." You still don't need to target anyone with it since it will auto-splash off you, but still have the convenience of being able to heal faraway targets in a pinch. (As long as I can still target it on other players I'm not partied with like with current Vercure or PvP Cure 3, rather than it being party-only like PvE Cure 3.)
I feel like RDM should, at SOME point, get either that or a Warden's Paean/Erase type oGCD as a "Veresuna", but not both. It's a DPS with some healing utility, yes, and arguably should have more healing utility than most DPS... but it should still be relatively limited compared to an actual healer.

[Mithron]

This issue affects essentially every job with single-target abilities that affect party members. Despite that, this has so far not really been a limitation for abilities such as these to be designed (tank single target abilities in particular) But I get you, so probably a reduction in charges + moving the recast higher to 20-30 seconds each (with higher potency to make up for it) might work better.

I think either approach seems fine to me, but the higher recast option may be nice in line with the amount of possible ogcds.

It's just there's not many DPS jobs in particular that need to target party members directly, and the one that does (DRG) hates it lol. Asking RDM to do it this often would be painful. SMN only has to do it with Rekindle what, every 2 minutes or so? DPS typically have higher APMs than tanks or healers, which is why it's easier for them.

Fun fact, this is often forgotten but FFXII Red Battlemage has AOE healing and strong single-target healing natively. Cura is an AOE spell with moderate power and Curaga is a single-target heal with a lot of power. They also have access to some limited Time Magick (Slow, Immobilize, Disable, Reflect) and Black Magic of course. And their own type was Arcane Magic, which was the dark-type spells and Ardor.

So I don't think RDM having a form of AOE healing is utterly far fetched.

Yeah it's honestly only in FF1 that RDMs can't AoE heal, really. They even can in FF Dimensions, my favorite game of all time that really nails job identity (Did you know DNC's Saber Dance is the third best physical DPS attack in this game? So rad. And RDMs get Magic Blade for Fire Slash, Petrify Slash and even Osmotic Slash to steal MP!).

But the main idea is that RDM heals are always very very weak, especially if you do it in AoE, so you can't really "replace" a WHM with them. They're more like emergency backup, or using your heals out of battle so you don't "waste turns" trying to heal as them. FF12 is an extreme outlier where you can probably solo heal with RDM throughout the entire game, but Zodiac Age also is absurdly easy not only with sub jobs but also with gear you get access to much sooner than the original version, so I tend to look at FF12 as the original PS2, with the Zodiac Job system not necessarily being "cannon" to the game as it was never truly designed for it, just added and tacked on but never rebalanced for.

[Ransu]

Yes, I'm right, as usual. You shouldn't be surprised at this point

You have never been right on these forums lol. Go back to gamefaqs and troll over there.