The health problem of hiding numbers while catering to high-end raiders

[Bukachu]

This.

Today's wow is literally a game that caters solely to raidloggers and the entire design is based "but if we give good rewards to casual/solo content our raidloggers will complain" so casual/solo content is both underdeveloped and unrewarding, and let's not even talk about the abomination that is today's story, I heard their new xpac's "casual" content is "flying" xD

FF14 is thankfully a far different game to WoW and that is why it has beaten WoW, it caters to everyone and doesnt treat raiders like somekind of special class of player, it has a decent story, it has fun and rewarding casual/solo content and now they are even starting to explore pvp as well more seriously.

If FF14 was anything like today's WoW people wouldnt have massively moved to FF14 during shadowbringers.

Surprisingly for you, todays WoW is almost not at all different from FFxiv fundamentally in endgame.

FFxiv's "hard" raids give the best loot in the game (630 that you cant get anywhere else) and wow's "hard" raids give best loot in the game (mythic raiding).
same for cosmetic rewards.
the same way wow caters to "raiders"s ffxiv does the same, can bring 100 more examples of it.

[Jojoya]

Surprisingly for you, todays WoW is almost not at all different from FFxiv fundamentally in endgame.

FFxiv's "hard" raids give the best loot in the game (630 that you cant get anywhere else) and wow's "hard" raids give best loot in the game (mythic raiding).
same for cosmetic rewards.
the same way wow caters to "raiders"s ffxiv does the same, can bring 100 more examples of it.

Yet WoW relies on RNG for end game gearing. FFXIV gives players deterministic options with viable crafted and tomestone gear that can be used if RNG is against you.

WoW has invested into borrowed power systems that impact every aspect of the game. FFXIV borrowed power systems impact only the specific content they're designed for.

WoW has gone the route of scoring player dungeon performance and making it a public display to give players even more incentive to ostracize others. FFXIV has stood firm against such a practice.

Wow thinks that repetitive world quests grinds should be more than enough content for players not interested in raiding/M+. FFXIV gives players multiple content options.

Old content in WoW becomes irrelevant the moment a new expansion drops. Old content in FFXIV remains relevant thanks to roulettes and level sync.

If all you do is tunnel vision where to get BiS end game gear, they may seem about the same. If you expand your vision beyond that, they're really not that much alike.

[Ralphe2449]

Surprisingly for you, todays WoW is almost not at all different from FFxiv fundamentally in endgame.

FFxiv's "hard" raids give the best loot in the game (630 that you cant get anywhere else) and wow's "hard" raids give best loot in the game (mythic raiding).
same for cosmetic rewards.
the same way wow caters to "raiders"s ffxiv does the same, can bring 100 more examples of it.

You are missing some very enormous differences.

WoW casual/solo content gives gear that is 40-50 ilvls below max ilvl aka gives WORTHLESS rewards and even with a ridiculous grind the gear at best is 40-30ilvls below max.
Casual/solo content is completely unrewarding because muh raidloggers would complain.

FF14 on the other hand has rewarding casual/solo content that is only a few ilvls behind maximum and with alliance raids each patch that ilvl difference is even smaller.

FF14 has an actual crafting system

WoW writing is so terrible it cant even be said it has a story

WoW has such terrible gearing that the most efficient way to gear is to pay blizzard for tokens to buy boosts, good luck getting into higher keys just for the sake of gearing up if you change mains mid patch.

FF14 has casual content, alliance raids, relic farming, bozja like zones, normal raids, beast tribes, deep dungeons, retainer farming and so much more that is relevant to this day because the game does not solely exists for raidloggers, unlike WoW whose entire focus is raidloggers to the point they have no casual content in the next xpac xD

Dont be surprised if a 2nd wave of WoW refugees comes a couple of months after their new xpac launches and people realize the game has nothing to offer to the average player other than "flying" xD

[Amarande]

Speaking from ignorance on savage level, but my impression was that endgame fine tuning was really only an issue for week 1 clears. Aren’t fights progressively easier as time goes by and raiders get better gear from weekly stuff?

…so doesn’t that make this whole thing moot? If a fight is so hard it can’t be cleared week 1…doesn’t it just get cleared week 2? Or 3?

That's how it should work, but the player culture spoils it to a sufficient degree to make things annoying.

If you hold out for better gear before you plunge into Savage (or even EX's, especially the odd patch ones that are tuned at the same ilvl as 3rd-4th Savage fights) you make your task a priori easier, but that tends to be counterbalanced by the fact that you've now missed "the community wave" - especially if you must PF, as many are inclined or forced to by their work schedule.

Now you have the problem that the people who have a decent grip on mechanics are almost always hiding behind Duty Complete, with the result that you're forced to learn and get your first clear with a remaining player pool that increasingly has two left feet (and it often only takes one or two such players per party to make the whole thing a waste of time).

The upshot is that you get this situation where Yoshi intended you to be able to gear up first, but where the playerbase basically forces you to either rush it right away or wait for next tier or even for unsync (which can easily make one feel like a wimp who missed out, if one feels one could've cleared it during tier)

[Dionysius]

Hiding? What numbers are hidden? It's all there in the Battle log...

[Bukachu]

Yet WoW relies on RNG for end game gearing. FFXIV gives players deterministic options with viable crafted and tomestone gear that can be used if RNG is against you.

WoW has invested into borrowed power systems that impact every aspect of the game. FFXIV borrowed power systems impact only the specific content they're designed for.

WoW has gone the route of scoring player dungeon performance and making it a public display to give players even more incentive to ostracize others. FFXIV has stood firm against such a practice.

Wow thinks that repetitive world quests grinds should be more than enough content for players not interested in raiding/M+. FFXIV gives players multiple content options.

Old content in WoW becomes irrelevant the moment a new expansion drops. Old content in FFXIV remains relevant thanks to roulettes and level sync.

If all you do is tunnel vision where to get BiS end game gear, they may seem about the same. If you expand your vision beyond that, they're really not that much alike.

False, most of end-game gearing is done same way as in ffxiv. there's certain level of rng, if you do it with randoms it will take you months to get your bis, if you do it with set group it will be faster, 8 people in WoW would be in Best in slots faster in wow than in FFxiv tbh lol.

I agree about borrowed power however that's going away from next expansion.

No one scores your dungeon performance, it simply shows what content you've done/finished, ffxiv has exact same thing, but right in the PF. its called "duty completed" where you cant even try to join a group if group leader only wants to play with people who've done the same content, seems to be like exact same thing where people avoid you if you havent done certain content.

What content options do you have in ffxiv in current expansion if you dont raid? because I can think of a few in both games, name yours and ill give you close to equivalents for them.

I was talking about endgame, old content isnt part of it afaik, but regardless, there're plenty of old content you can do in both games. I hate doing old content in both games, but if you're into that, ffxiv has roulettes and sync and wow has old dungeons in M+, mage tower, timewalking, etc.

[kaynide]

That's how it should work, but the player culture spoils it to a sufficient degree to make things annoying.

If you hold out for better gear before you plunge into Savage (or even EX's, especially the odd patch ones that are tuned at the same ilvl as 3rd-4th Savage fights) you make your task a priori easier, but that tends to be counterbalanced by the fact that you've now missed "the community wave" - especially if you must PF, as many are inclined or forced to by their work schedule.

Now you have the problem that the people who have a decent grip on mechanics are almost always hiding behind Duty Complete, with the result that you're forced to learn and get your first clear with a remaining player pool that increasingly has two left feet (and it often only takes one or two such players per party to make the whole thing a waste of time).

The upshot is that you get this situation where Yoshi intended you to be able to gear up first, but where the playerbase basically forces you to either rush it right away or wait for next tier or even for unsync (which can easily make one feel like a wimp who missed out, if one feels one could've cleared it during tier)

Good insight- thank you. I basically don't touch any of it until I can basically solo/faceroll it with my circle of friends, but I get that there is some personal pride in it for people who wanna show off the newest gear/beat the newest challenge. That said, I'm certainly not saying "your/their fun certainly is wrong", and appreciate that there are different things for different interests.