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  1. #1
    Player
    Hyperia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,481
    Character
    Aileen Pureheart
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Maltothoris View Post
    YoshiP: Ok I mean as I said before (and this happened before), if I give an answer to one question, it won't work on the other one (for some reason). Ok, we are told that (healers) are free, which is why healers tend to focus on firepower instead, and we should give healers more situations where they need to heal, and we increased the healing work required here...well I mean for the entire expansion and we did it but as expected this happens....so what are we supposed to do now hahaha...oh god if any I should be the one trying to discuss with you guys here. Aaaaaaahhh I mean yeah I knew this will definitely happen (long sigh). Well I mean I thought we've achieved quite a good balance here....(long ponder), Well yeah I mean if I have to start decreasing the difficulty and I'll get comments that it's too lax (laughs). Well I will need data...either way we did indeed increase the intensity for sure, although this was the balance that was asked of us......I mean this is personal disparity, yeah, there are healers who are completely fine with this tuning, and there are other healers who would go "this is too hard I can't do this".
    Can most healers handle the healing checks in the raids? Most likely, without many issues, sure. What is causing the problem for the healers is that we are being asked to do complex mechanics, heal a lot more due to the healing checks, AND... maintain high DPS as if we were not having to heal. What they need to do is, somehow, explain to everybody that if they increase the healing requirements, DPS performed by the healers will go down and to accept that. Since everything in this game is DPS DPS DPS and more DPS, the only way I can see them fixing the DPS issue is to give healers more DPS boosting / support abilities to offset the lower DPS.

    I love healing, I want to heal more but... I CANT... I have to do huge DPS numbers so that the DPS checks are met and the boss dies. If I'm not 96% uptime on DPS, there is a good chance that checks will be missed.

    Without totally rebuilding the role of healers so that they only heal / buff DPS, I don't see how this situation can really be fixed. When I periodically went back to WoW to look around, I tried to play my healer in WoW like my FFXIV healer... god... what an experience that was. In WoW, you HEAL... I mean... you - H E A L - as you don't have time to DPS as there is so much damage and healing spells have long cool downs. Healing in WoW is more like slowing the death of the players just long enough that they kill the monsters before they die.

    The way healing is in this game right now and the age of the game, I don't see very many options for the Devs to fix this. There kind of stuck in the situation they are in and there are very few ways to fix this short of deleting healers or rebuilding them from the ground up. Yoshi knows this and this is why his answers are so full of pain and misery.
    (3)

  2. #2
    Player
    WaxSw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    659
    Character
    Waxillium Larede
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post

    Without totally rebuilding the role of healers so that they only heal / buff DPS, I don't see how this situation can really be fixed. When I periodically went back to WoW to look around, I tried to play my healer in WoW like my FFXIV healer... god... what an experience that was. In WoW, you HEAL... I mean... you - H E A L - as you don't have time to DPS as there is so much damage and healing spells have long cool downs. Healing in WoW is more like slowing the death of the players just long enough that they kill the monsters before they die.
    This works in wow because its party comp is open, meaning that healers can be replaced by dps and as such healing in wow, battle and job design aside, is more about granting enough hps so that the healer count can be minimized in favor of more useful roles, its the same as ffxiv but instead of changing one gcd heal for a dps spell you switch an unnecesary healer for a dps, also the notion that wow healers don't dps is only true at low levels of skill, healers in wow deal significantly less damage than healers in ffxiv but even there dpsing is prefered over unnecesary healing and even with that low focus on damage there the dps tools wow healers have are more varied and interesting than the ones available to xiv's healers
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by IttyBitty View Post
    Emnity management is a group responsibility, HP management is a group responsibility, Mitigation is a group responsibility ,DPS is a group responsibility
    Anybody saying "I only want to <x>" just tells me they are lazy and selfish.

  3. #3
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post
    Can most healers handle the healing checks in the raids? Most likely, without many issues, sure. What is causing the problem for the healers is that we are being asked to do complex mechanics, heal a lot more due to the healing checks, AND... maintain high DPS as if we were not having to heal.
    Which wouldn't be a problem if they'd just be consistent about it. Consistency is key. Do you want hard healing checks? Then significant Healer DPS needs to not be included in fight balance (like they used to claim, but were mathematically proven wrong). No other job has that much going on for them, that much responsibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post
    The way healing is in this game right now and the age of the game, I don't see very many options for the Devs to fix this. There kind of stuck in the situation they are in and there are very few ways to fix this short of deleting healers or rebuilding them from the ground up. Yoshi knows this and this is why his answers are so full of pain and misery.
    The issue with this is the Devs already DID attempt to start them from Square One in Shadowbringers and it was a colossal failure.. Which is the exact reason healers don't trust them to touch it again.
    (13)
    Last edited by Deceptus; 10-13-2022 at 03:39 AM.
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  4. #4
    Player
    Liam_Harper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,470
    Character
    Liam Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post
    Can most healers handle the healing checks in the raids? Most likely, without many issues, sure. What is causing the problem for the healers is that we are being asked to do complex mechanics, heal a lot more due to the healing checks, AND... maintain high DPS as if we were not having to heal.
    You realize you're talking about Savage and Ultimate raids, the hard mode content that's meant to be the most difficult in the game? Yes, it's meant to be challenging. Dps are also expected to maintain a rotation, often with higher apm than ours, while navigating the same complex mechanics. That's just how endgame goes, you need to bring your best.

    If thousands of other healers can dps while healing a lot just fine, enjoy it, but you can't and it's stressful, then Savage is probably not for you. Why run something you find stressful? In other content, healers doing less dps is fine.

    Wanting more to heal is nice, but that has nothing to do with dps. There's only a limited amount of damage to heal, even in heal intensive fights, then every heal after that is completely useless. So we fill in the blanks with dps. It sounds more like your issue is that you don't like having to do something useful with every GCD because full uptime is too much stress. Mythic raids in WoW would be similarly stressful even if it was mostly healing.

    Also your dps uptime isn't 96%, I notice your static uses logs, so to see uptime you need to plug those into https://xivanalysis.com/
    (12)

  5. #5
    Player
    Hyperia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,481
    Character
    Aileen Pureheart
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Liam_Harper View Post
    Also your dps uptime isn't 96%, I notice your static uses logs, so to see uptime you need to plug those into https://xivanalysis.com/
    Sigh... voice my opinion and FFLogs is tossed at me...

    Airight... I'll go back to lurking and keep my head down, I'll let the 96%+ DPS up time people talk.
    (6)

  6. #6
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post
    Sigh... voice my opinion and FFLogs is tossed at me...

    Airight... I'll go back to lurking and keep my head down, I'll let the 96%+ DPS up time people talk.
    Well that just broke my heart.
    (3)

  7. #7
    Player
    MintnHoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    903
    Character
    Aylin Bielawska
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post
    Sigh... voice my opinion and FFLogs is tossed at me...

    Airight... I'll go back to lurking and keep my head down, I'll let the 96%+ DPS up time people talk.
    I can't exactly speak for Liam, but I doubt that they meant anything harmful or to invalidate you (considering that, prior to that, they had actually chosen to go through each of your post's discussion points). If anything, you could have ignored that part and just chosen to continue in the discussion anyway, and just chosen to talk about the other 3/4ths of his reply to your post.

    That's what I'd do. I barely heal anymore, and when I do, it's barely coherent since I just don't care (and we still succeed, go figure, haha~). That doesn't mean I'm not going to send messages to Square Enix on a weekly basis reminding them that healing is a boring chore and that this bleeding of healing veterans won't cease until it no longer is.
    (10)
    Last edited by MintnHoney; 10-15-2022 at 01:48 PM.

  8. #8
    Player
    Rilifane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,580
    Character
    Esther Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperia View Post
    Sigh... voice my opinion and FFLogs is tossed at me...

    Airight... I'll go back to lurking and keep my head down, I'll let the 96%+ DPS up time people talk.
    Is that all you take from it?
    It wasn't even an insult, just a bit of information to prevent a very common mistake: mixing up fflogs "active" with actual uptime. I've seen countless people think they're close to 100% uptime because they thought that's what the "active" part meant but xiva is the tool to go with if you want to take a closer look at how you performed and where you could improve if you want to.

    You make it sound as if someone tore you apart over logs and told you to not even post here but there were some good points and a bit of information that's easy to miss. Nothing was "tossed at you". You interpreted something wrong judging by your "96+ dps uptime" (which you mentioned first) and that happens and now you know which tools to use to get the correct information if you want to. Nothing keeps you from posting here.

    And the main problem with not being able to heal more isn't that you're forced to dps and do huge dps numbers but rather that there simply isn't more to heal. Just look at p6s and the laughably long gaps between damage. Most raidwides have at least 30s between them with several cases of 60s and even close to 90s. What else can you do but spam dps? There is literally nothing to heal, that's why you can't heal more.
    And right now you can still sit well below the dps uptime you mentioned and your group clears just fine.
    (5)
    Last edited by Rilifane; 10-16-2022 at 09:36 PM.