AST (and DRG) had their improvements pushed to 7.0 PLD are getting theirs in 6.3

[Rivinhal]

Ruin II used to be the same potency as Broil, but had double the MP cost. This made it effective for weaving purposes, but not ideal for spamming and was a healthy way for SCH to address mobility. You felt mobile, but there was a soft limit to your ability to do so. It was also a unique way to address mobility and weaving rather than just making Broil have a 1.5 second cast time that had a bit more flavor and feel to it, even if fairly small. I can't really fathom not wanting that over the current Ruin II feeling more inconsequential than it's ever felt before and still taking a DPS tax.

What you described is certainly a better way of handling it. I feel like that would be a good way to make Ruin 2 more valid for what it's supposed to be. But I still don't think adding energy drain back was a good way to solve the issue.

SCH is the only healer that has no way to move outside of its 30s DoT refresh and weave windows without losing DPS. --- etc.

The difference is that Broil wasn't a 1.5s cast in those expansions either though. It's not even really necessary anymore. Slidecasting has never been easier, and if you're using Ruin 2 constantly, there's an issue imo.
Maybe that comes down to personal opinion, who knows. After all, I understand the argument that you're making, but I think rather than just caving and giving us back a shoddy tool like energy drain that fixes one issue and exacerbates another, they could've just fixed the problem entirely.
That's my biggest gripe. There's so many ways they could've fixed it, but instead people begged for energy drain, and they got it. And now SE seems to think the job is just fine because people got what they wanted and the job performs well.
Sure, it performs well, but it's so janky that it hurts. It's like they don't understand the job at all. It's infuriating.

[Nizzi]

It's like they don't understand the job at all. It's infuriating.

This is important to remember because it's true - the changes to Scholar from Stormblood to even Endwalker show they don't understand how the job is played, or if they do they have a radically different vision for how it, in their minds, should be played.

The difference is that Broil wasn't a 1.5s cast in those expansions either though. It's not even really necessary anymore. Slidecasting has never been easier, and if you're using Ruin 2 constantly, there's an issue imo.

The problem is that if you're using Ruin II at all, there's an issue. It's not just a "don't use this often" button, it's ALWAYS a DPS loss to use it, so when trying to optimize it's a "never use this" button. In ShB, Lilies were used by White Mage primarily as a movement tool because WHM had no movement options outside of hitting Dia for the 70 or whatever potency it was. WHM was even called a turret mage by some because it just couldn't move without losing DPS, and obviously that's been changed in EW and now WHM can use its Lilies for healing or needed movement, and I don't think anyone seriously wants to go back to the "lmao enjoy the DPS loss for pressing your buttons MORON" era on WHM. So why should we now be suffering that on SCH?

One thing I'm a bit confused is how you don't like Energy Drain, but you do like Ruin II - they're two sides of the same token. One is a DPS loss to heal with, and the other is a DPS loss. If it feels bad to hit ED, it feels bad to hit Ruin II.

I think rather than just caving and giving us back a shoddy tool like energy drain that fixes one issue and exacerbates another, they could've just fixed the problem entirely.

While it's true that SE doesn't understand Scholar, it's also important to understand the timeline in which these changes were made. In Stormblood, Miasma II was a 100 potency spell with a 12s DoT that had a 25s potency, meaning it added up to 200 potency total if the DoT got the full tick duration - pair that with Energy Drain's 150 potency (at the time, it was nerfed mid ShB) and Miasma II + ED was a 350 potency combo, a 120 potency gain over Broil II (230 potency) and SCH's best way of moving or weaving healing. Ruin II also existed in Stormblood, but it was always a DPS loss to hit even though Ruin II + ED would've been 20 potency gain over Broil II (Ruin II was 100 potency). It was always a DPS loss to hit because Miasma II existed as the superior option. So SE saw that Scholars were not using Ruin II, but they had a general understanding of the reasoning being that Miasma II was 200 potency, Ruin II was 100 potency, so in their great SCH DoT cull they buffed Ruin II to 200 potency like Miasma II was, and got rid of Miasma II.

Great, everything is perfect now, right? Scholars will use Ruin II now and we got rid of a DoT!

Well, not really. You also have to keep in mind that this happened at the exact same time that Scholar lost it's entirely free source of healing - its faerie. Moving Eos and Selene off the petGCD and onto the oGCD now meant that SCH had to weave to use Whispering Dawn and the new faerie heals when previously these had never come with an opportunity or DPS cost as SCH could use them while they were casting Broil or any other spells. So people demanded Energy Drain back, because coming off of Stormblood, it was what they knew in regards to Scholar. Would 1.5s cast times like AST had at that point have fixed that issue? Yeah, it would've, and they could've kept Energy Drain gone as well. Why didn't they do that? Well, because they don't understand how the job is played. They don't care, it's a healer and it's not something they're ever going to care about.

[ty_taurus]

What you described is certainly a better way of handling it. I feel like that would be a good way to make Ruin 2 more valid for what it's supposed to be. But I still don't think adding energy drain back was a good way to solve the issue.

I wasn't really addressing Energy Drain specifically.

The main issue with it feels shitty without Energy Drain is that Aetherflow generation is tied to a cooldown that also is a part of maintaining your MP. In that moment, having to either sit on Aetherflow or waste potential stacks of Aetherflow doesn't feel good at all. Energy Drain creates problems both when it does exist as well as when it doesn't. I would argue the underlying issue is in how Aetherflow is handled as a resource.

For starters, I see no point in having two gauges centered around healing, especially when one of them is highly inconsequential. Personally, I believe their resource breakdown should be reworked so that healing resources work off the Fey Gauge and damage resources work off your Aetherflow.

[Rivinhal]

This is important to remember because it's true ---

Yeah, either they don't understand the job, or their vision is so drastically different from what players perceive it as. That seems like a problem no matter which way you slice it.

Regarding the comparison to whm, again, whm didn't have a 1.5s cast time at that point either. It's not exactly a reasonable comparison. Personally I just don't see the same dire need for movement abilities like energy drain or even ruin II with such a short primary cast. So the whole argument regarding ED as a crucial movement tool rings hollow to me. I'm not saying it's not useful, but it's not as required as it used to be.

If we really want a dps neutral movement tool, I think there are better ways to handle it vs. forcing players to choose between a dps movement tool and ogcd healing. That feels horrible. That's why I dislike energy drain. I think it limits scholar in ways that other healers aren't limited, and we already have too many frustrating abilities that limit how our kit can be used. Ruin II might be a dps loss that feels bad to use, but it doesn't take the place of one of my ogcds either. If you want a comparison to whm, why does whm get a dps nuke by healing, and we have to choose between a neutral movement tool and healing? Idk. I just wish they would've removed it and designed something new that interacted with the AF system (or maybe even tied it more into the fairy gauge) in a way that feels less bad to use instead.

And sure. I get why people demanded it come back. But like you said. 1.5s casts would've rendered it moot. Ultimately I just think SE could've done so much better. I love SCH. And I feel like we're neglected when it comes to design. A lot of our kit feels bad to use. Energy drain, dissipation, aetherpact, etc. I complain because I do care. I just wish it felt like SE did too.

That'll be 3 jobs with "reworks" in 7.0 then ---

Maybe. But I don't think any of these jobs will get major reworks like Summoner. Think 5.1 Ninja. I think they'll be mostly the same, but with key things different that alter how they play slightly. But who knows.

I wasn't really addressing Energy Drain specifically. ---

This is why I think they need to rework the job slightly. I sort of agree about the issue originating from AF as a resource, but I don't think it's a problem without a fix. There are other ways to manage overcapping on AF. There are other ways to ensure that AF usage enables dps options. But yeah. The fact we have a whole gauge that exists for one lone st HoT ability (that if you cast any other fairy ability, gets canceled)? It's a bit of a joke.