Female Hrothgar as a playable race. Show your support!

[Midareyukki]

Like, there's simply no way to convince me that there's no way to design something more animal like that gets decent love in this game. Perhaps what you envision wouldn't be popular, but that's not the only option. Like, what's even the "magic amount" to this? Is this or this too beastly to be decently popular? How many MMOs got generally attractive furry types, anyway?

The reason they don't usually make lean characters like that is because it's not "realistic".
...okay, I need to explain this one.

Essentially what I mean is that "In real life, where they draw inspiration from these races", animals like bears, lions, tigers and wolves are notoriously muscular. Hell, look no further than the tiger for just how massive their freaking arm muscles are.

Which is why they mostly only ever create races like those. So when you add those images as examples of what would be decently popular, I don't doubt they'd be played. A lot of people likely would play them, 100%. After all, people play Elezen (I'm sorry).
The issue is that you shouldn't always conflate popularity with design. Because one thing is "people would play the heck out of this", but it doesn't matter if most game devs just look at a big animal that sounds cool and ferocious and just makes them super buffed as a result. Traditionally, races who are that lean and jovial looking tend to be set as mages or chivalric, not a Proud Warrior Race which is usually what you tend to see from these races. Bozja, the Charr as a whole, even the Worgen exude that sort of energy. I say "traditionally", because they really don't have to be. The issue is that most game devs are older people who are used to a more conservative outlook on what race is meant to do what role in their world. We still live in a Tolkien-inspired narrative where big guys are tough warriors and lean guys are fragile magic weavers.

Sexual dimorphism isn't that bad either. It just doesn't always have to be for the lean and mean types. That's what Viera have, and it's clearly an option. I wouldn't mind at all if female Hrothgar looked bulky and large, but that's my opinion and beauty standard. I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't accept large women without calling them "too manly". If they want to make something like the one you posted, Reivaxe, they really wouldn't do too bad going for making another race. The Lupine are available :P

Reivaxe's right when she says that the "it's unpopular" argument is total BS. Furry/Beast races are popular, and not just in GW2. Hrothgar just suffer from a whole swathe of issues, many of which repel people from even trying it. I mean, why waste a Fantasia for something inferior, right? Plus, according to the census, while Hrothgar are still low on the total, they outnumber other races.

[Rokke]

I mean, why waste a Fantasia for something inferior, right? Plus, according to the census, while Hrothgar are still low on the total, they outnumber other races.

if you are going to use statistics you should be consistent across the numbers you are pulling. the full numbers paint a picture that you do not get if you pick total pop for some and active pop for others.

[Midareyukki]

if you are going to use statistics you should be consistent across the numbers you are pulling. the full numbers paint a picture that you do not get if you pick total pop for some and active pop for others.

...ok so you're literally saying an image that is pulled from the primary page to show that Hrothgars are listed overall as outnumbering Male Viera, and at endgame outnumbering Roegadyn and male Elezen, and thus NOT the 2% people insist we are to the point of irrelevancy isn't consistent?

I don't think that's an issue with me being inconsistent, it's an issue with you not getting the point of the image.

I'm not comparing the races.

I'm stating that we outnumber others in specific aspects of the game, and thus should not be denied attention simply because "Oh you're the least played race in the game". When we clearly are not.

Because on the first post I posted that image, I even conceded: "On overall numbers of active accounts, we outnumber male Viera but do not outnumber them in the amount of players at Endgame. Instead, we outnumber other races. In total, however, on both accounts we are not the rock bottom people insist we are, thus we are not irrelevant and content SHOULD be made with quality for us."

Does this satisfy your criteria? Or are you going to twist the purpose of the image once again?

I do apologize if it wasn't clear when posted, but personally I feel like calling me "inconsistent" is the same as "twisting the data to serve my narrative". At no point have I done that. The whole point was to, as Reivaxe said, show that we're not as unpopular as other choices, and thus arguments that are based on that notion are false.

"You should have added the other values", irrelevant to the point, it's implied they're higher.
"You're comparing among the only races you selected", first, not races, options, and secondly, even if I did, that's the point: to prove the statement that "Hrothgars are not the lowest used option". Anything else is fluff. It's not an image used to prove superiority against other races in any way. Collectively, Roegadyn, Elezen or Viera would still outnumber us. The issue is that we're a race of only one option, and if we go by that standard, we're not the least played one.

There's absolutely zero difference between me doing that, you doing that just with more data, or either of us saying "Go see the Census for yourself". The result will still be the same: there is one option as of 6.1 that's lower than Hrothgar. Meaning the argument that "we're the lowest used" is, again, false and should not be used to discredit us nor the content and quality we ask for. If all those other options can have good quality stuff made for them, why can't we?

[Rokke]

post was too long to quote, sorry

And I quote: "while Hrothgar are still low on the total, they outnumber other races."
pictured: total hroths vs total M viera, EW hroths vs EW F Elezen/M Roe

I did not mention any 2%'s because I still don't know where 2% came from outside seeing it posted here on the forums. Was it from Lucky Bancho? A Famitsu or Reddit poll? Official forums shitposting that became accepted as fact? Who knows. I have also not mentioned any population of being deserving/non deserving of anything solely due to population size, because using that a metric of what we get would end in F miqo'te/au ra exclusive everything. But picking 2 charts and pointing at aspects that suit "outnumbering" in and only in said aspects is quite literally cherry picking.

[RyuDragnier]

And I quote: "while Hrothgar are still low on the total, they outnumber other races."
pictured: total hroths vs total M viera, EW hroths vs EW F Elezen/M Roe

I did not mention any 2%'s because I still don't know where 2% came from outside seeing it posted here on the forums. Was it from Lucky Bancho? A Famitsu or Reddit poll? Official forums shitposting that became accepted as fact? Who knows. I have also not mentioned any population of being deserving/non deserving of anything solely due to population size, because using that a metric of what we get would end in F miqo'te/au ra exclusive everything. But picking 2 charts and pointing at aspects that suit "outnumbering" in and only in said aspects is quite literally cherry picking.

You cannot use across all players because of bots existing, skewing the numbers in one direction, and all characters includes players who don't play anymore, untouched alts, etc, because all of those characters still exist on the servers. You have to use the endgame metric numbers for a more accurate count. And yes, we can compare individual male hrothgar vs the individual genders of other races because those numbers under endgame prove that Hrothgar isn't the least popular of the sex/race combinations. Not when female Elezen, male Roe, and female Roe are lower in number.

[Rokke]

You cannot use across all players because of bots existing, skewing the numbers in one direction, and all characters includes players who don't play anymore, untouched alts, etc, because all of those characters still exist on the servers. You have to use the endgame metric numbers for an accurate count. And yes, we can compare individual male hrothgar vs the individual genders of other races because those numbers under endgame prove that Hrothgar isn't the least popular of the sex/race combinations. Not when female Elezen, male Roe, and female Roe are lower in number.

Oh, I totally agree that using the endgame numbers is way better than total pops (and on that note, I wish that Lucky Bancho data was still summarized and translated with every update, it was more accurate than the eng census because it broke things down by expansions, levels, population shifts both by race and sever transfers/unsubs/new players, etc). I was pointing out that you shouldn't use metric 1 sometimes and metric 2 otherwise when trying to prove the same point. Hroths are more active than several of the OG races.

[Pip_Chick]

You cannot use across all players because of bots existing, skewing the numbers in one direction, and all characters includes players who don't play anymore, untouched alts, etc, because all of those characters still exist on the servers. You have to use the endgame metric numbers for a more accurate count. And yes, we can compare individual male hrothgar vs the individual genders of other races because those numbers under endgame prove that Hrothgar isn't the least popular of the sex/race combinations. Not when female Elezen, male Roe, and female Roe are lower in number.

I am actually glad about this. If I remember correctly before 6.0 Hrothgar was under male Roe in terms of numbers at Endgame, but after they started to give them hairs and make the change not cost IRL money, people started to come back and now they surpass female Elezen, and both Roe. I personally know a few people who changed back because of this!
It's not a lot, but those are some happy news. Now we can just hope they will perfect their technique and introduce the hairs for both Viera and Hrothgar into the pipeline.

[Midareyukki]

And I quote: "while Hrothgar are still low on the total, they outnumber other races."
pictured: total hroths vs total M viera, EW hroths vs EW F Elezen/M Roe

I did not mention any 2%'s because I still don't know where 2% came from outside seeing it posted here on the forums. Was it from Lucky Bancho? A Famitsu or Reddit poll? Official forums shitposting that became accepted as fact? Who knows. I have also not mentioned any population of being deserving/non deserving of anything solely due to population size, because using that a metric of what we get would end in F miqo'te/au ra exclusive everything. But picking 2 charts and pointing at aspects that suit "outnumbering" in and only in said aspects is quite literally cherry picking.

Firstly. You not knowing about the "3/2%" argument is none of my concern. It's a thing that got touted around after April Fool's. It was prevalent in Hrothgar-aimed forums. Whether you were active in them enough to know or not is up to you, but you can verify it for yourself in the three major Hrothgar threads created since 6.1's LL. It's part of how Hrothgars have been treated until now, so when we talk about it, at least now you know. This being a Hrothgar thread, you'd do well to be informed of what happened to our race and why discourse around it usually takes specific turns before pitching in. A lot of the ideas people think we haven't considered have actually already been beaten to the dirt. Do your research, educate yourself.

Secondly. I reiterated the purpose of the image. It was to simply show a singular truth. Hrothgars do not have the lowest number among other choices. Other choices have had better content designed for them. When Hrothgars ASKED for such quality, they were told that they were at the bottom and couldn't get any.

It was to remind everyone that "you are 2% of the playerbase" is no argument. Not only do Hrothgar outnumber Male Viera in total, but at endgame they outnumber a type of Elezen and both types of Roegadyn separately. And that claiming "oh you're just 2%" is disingenuous. You don't tell female Elezen nor any form of Roegadyn "your option amounts to only X percent of the playerbase at endgame, thus you cannot have quality in the stuff made for you", do you?

That was the sentiment I was referring to, that was the sentiment Reivaxe was referring to.

Hrothgars are outnumbered by Roegadyn and Viera themselves collectively. Your image does not add anything whatsoever. You are misunderstanding the purpose my image is meant to serve and saying I'm twisting stuff to fit a narrative. But what narrative would I be trying to twist? What do you think I'm "hiding"?
It's like "is this orange larger than any in the bowl?" -> "Yes, it's larger than THIS one". And you come over saying "You're ignoring all the other oranges in the bowl!"...

Lastly?
I'm not basing my argument on omission. That data does not factor in. I'm fooling no one by showing this. I'm not saying "Hrothgar outnumber Male Viera, so they're higher than Viera or every other race". How is this cherrypicking? Please define it for me. Before you call me dishonest.

Is it because I cropped the image? If so, know it was to make it compact and easier to read. Stretched out images tend to be too small to read, and the graph is LARGE. And I didn't "hide" anything important to what I was proving. Had I included it, it would have changed absolutely nothing. Again, read the orange analogy.

[Rokke]

*Runs and hides before the masses start fighting again*

This isnt even a fight this is Official Forum:tm:ing.

2%

Again, what is the source of this fabled flat 2%? Im digging through the old hair complaint threads again and have seen it repeated several times with no source so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that its a Just Trust Me Bro number that was repeated often enough to get accepted as true. Hell, even your old posts are quoting people who pulled 2% out of nowhere and you just ran with the number. edit: I found the 2%! Its from a famitsu poll. Its smaller than the current pop so hey, we climbed a smidge.

I posted in those hrothgar threads because A. I have a hrothgar (gasp) and B. people in the GD like to fling could've/should've/would'ves without knowing how XIV's models work. So I attempted to explain. Several times. Because that is a thing I've checked for myself. The majority of the megathread sorted into sympathetic non hroths and understandably miffed hroths. Skimming through the pages few (really, I think there were maybe a handful of sarcastic bait posts and then one regular poster who likes to be contrarian about everything I caught) people pushed back against the idea that hroths deserved better than the earless hairs, so I'm not sure why we're pretending that number was weaponized.


And to steer this thread back on track:

Still hoping for something akin to best girl Khamira.

Same. The snoot is a charm point.

[Midareyukki]

This isnt even a fight this is Official Forum:tm:ing.

It's used by people to shut down Hrothgar feedback in the forums. Whether it started here or not is 100% irrelevant. So... great that you know where it started. You asking about it shows you're ignorant as to Hrothgar-centric discourse here.

I posted in those hrothgar threads because A. I have a hrothgar (gasp)

Not shocking at all. Pip-Chick mains a Hrothgar and uses an alt as an avatar here. You may have a Hrothgar alt and that's valid. It's just that, again, if you haven't seen people raise the 3/2% argument, it's because you weren't paying enough attention. Ask anyone else: it's a thing touted by a lot of people. Especially Hyurs.

and B. people in the GD like to fling (...) so I'm not sure why we're pretending that number was weaponized.

Because the number was brought as the reason why Hrothgars shouldn't be given anything too major with proper quality.

You ignored several times the reason why I posted the image. Acknowledge it. Otherwise, sorry, but you're calling me dishonest and accusing me of cherrypicking for absolutely zero reason. You have been proven wrong, you at no point owned up to your misunderstanding. By focusing on this statistic and saying "well, I didn't see it, and I don't value the posts where people would use it" is, on the other hand, what I find cherrypicking simply because you want to end up sounding correct.

You are not correct. And I'm not challenging whether the statistic started here or not. But ask anyone: it has been used as an argument, a really shitty argument. Multiple times. If you have a Hrothgar and you don't know this, then you weren't invested enough to know. All this is you distracting people from the real point of why we're having this conversation. A thing you haven't admitted to whatsoever:

You did not acknowledge that I wasn't hiding anything valuable to the point that was being proven.


Whether you agree the point exists to begin with or not is up to you. If I and Reivaxe felt like it was enough to discuss it and post information on it, then that's on us. At no point were I nor Reivaxe dishonest in doing so. Don't accuse me of lying without acknowledging this much. I have plenty of flaws, I won't deny that. But you just keep digging holes and going in roundabout information without ever getting to the core reason this started in the first place.

Edit: Look, if this is what I get for posting one harmless picture and trying to defend this race from people who have actively been seeking to undermine discourse and feedback from, then I give up. Y'all are on your own now. You want to deal with people dissecting every single thing you've done out of sheer pettiness, go ahead guys. Be my guest. I'm done. I'm not here to deal with people this stubborn that they refuse to admit that they were jumping the gun and calling people liars. You may have your grievances with me all you want, but I'd rather have this race come out just fine and future content about it be done without hitches. And if you guys want to do that, go ahead and do it, be ready for people like this.
I'm done.