Are positionals a outdated thing?

[ty_taurus]

I don't really understand why there can't be 1 dedicated positional job. Obviously a lot of bosses aren't designed with positionals in mind and that throws a wrench into things, but there's nothing wrong with having 1 job like monk dedicate itself to positionals for the players that enjoy it. If you don't like positionals then play literally any other job. That's a thing you can do in this game. We have a really beautiful job system which would really allow for more jobs to have very specific aspects to their gameplay designed for certain players who like those systems, so why aren't we doing more of that?

[Iyrnthota]

I think I understand what you are saying but I have a few questions and a what if:
Why is there this dicotomy of "if fight have positionals then it's limiting the design"?

I'm not a dev and I can't speak for them but we don't know where in the development process considerations for positionals come in but:

What if they design the fight they want, tune it for difficulty (which i would argue is the biggest limiter for fight designs) and at the end they test out for positionals. If positionals are doable they keep the positionals ring. IF they struggle to do positionals then they just ask the devs to implement the no positionals ring on that boss and call it day.

Why do things have to be one or the other?

I'm personally quite happy with the middle ground that we have. some fights have positionals, some fights have no positionals. Everyone wins sometimes instead of some winning all the time.

I think, strictly speaking, if you want a fight to have positionals then it is limiting what you can do with the design.

Of course there's a lot of different opinions on that.
Some people prefer it, some not.

Maybe there are even some Devs that really enjoy the challenge of designing a fight with these restrictions in mind, whereas there might be other Devs that prefer they didn't have to take them into account.

Part of walking the middle ground though is that you're going to get questions, comments, and complaints from either side of the line.

For fights with them, you'll have people who will enjoy it and praise it as much as people who are annoyed about having to deal with them.
Similarly for fights without them, you'll get people who are pleased they don't have to take them into account, and others who are upset that the functionality has essentially been discarded for an entire fight.

[Iyrnthota]

On a personal note actually, I was doing some roulettes on my MNK last night with this thread in mind, and I think my biggest current issue with positionals is the lack of positive feedback.

As it stand most of the time I don't actually know that I've hit them or not.

Like, if I 'm standing directly behind the boss and I hit a rear positional button, I know intellectually that I've hit that positional requirement, and have thus increased my damage or what have you. But in terms of actual game feel, there isn't much of a difference between hitting it and missing it. It feels very unsatisfying.

Perhaps there's something I'm missing, but I can't actually tell if I've hit a positional other than:
a) I am very obviously in the right position
b) I use some sort of 3rd party tool and review after the fight

I feel like if the Dev team want to keep positionals around one of the best things they could do is improve the visual/audio feedback for sucessfully hitting one.

[Asari5]

when dragoons complete a combo the first skill of the nwxt combo gets an upgrade. in ShB you needed to hit the positional to get that upgrade. it was a really nice confirmation + reward for hitting the positional and it was kind satisfying

would have liked it more if they kept it that way

[Yeastyloins]

On a personal note actually, I was doing some roulettes on my MNK last night with this thread in mind, and I think my biggest current issue with positionals is the lack of positive feedback.

As it stand most of the time I don't actually know that I've hit them or not.

Like, if I 'm standing directly behind the boss and I hit a rear positional button, I know intellectually that I've hit that positional requirement, and have thus increased my damage or what have you. But in terms of actual game feel, there isn't much of a difference between hitting it and missing it. It feels very unsatisfying.

Perhaps there's something I'm missing, but I can't actually tell if I've hit a positional other than:
a) I am very obviously in the right position
b) I use some sort of 3rd party tool and review after the fight

I feel like if the Dev team want to keep positionals around one of the best things they could do is improve the visual/audio feedback for sucessfully hitting one.

Surprisingly, I've noticed SAM has that in terms of the sound of your ability when you get positionals. It sounds distinct compared to when you fail the positional. I however have not noticed that playing MNK or NIN

[Iyrnthota]

Surprisingly, I've noticed SAM has that in terms of the sound of your ability when you get positionals. It sounds distinct compared to when you fail the positional. I however have not noticed that playing MNK or NIN

Perhaps there is one, but only on StB+ melee jobs. Does RPR have something I wonder?

[Schan]

I think, strictly speaking, if you want a fight to have positionals then it is limiting what you can do with the design.

I finally understood why I wasn't understanding where you were coming from. We are looking at the same problem from different perspectives.

Your premise would be that if positionals have to 100% be a thing then the design has to be limited to allow such a thing.

Mine was if i want to design a fight however i want then positions aren't such a huge consideration or limiter bc there is a choice to disable them.
I was struggling to grasp the point of limitations on design bc my argument is simply... "just design whatever way you want it to be and if it's too much of a pain in the backside then just turn off positionals"

On a personal note actually, I was doing some roulettes on my MNK last night with this thread in mind, and I think my biggest current issue with positionals is the lack of positive feedback.

Fully agree with this and it's the only gripe I have with positionals.

I wish we would get a different sound or something when you land a positional.

I honestly thought that the idea that was applied to DRGs (upgrading their attacks if they landed a positional) would've been great for monks but that would create a bigger gap between skill floor and skill ceiling which is something the devs have made it clear they aren't keen on having in their game.

[Schan]

Surprisingly, I've noticed SAM has that in terms of the sound of your ability when you get positionals. It sounds distinct compared to when you fail the positional. I however have not noticed that playing MNK or NIN

I think DRG has it as well but it's BARELY noticeable. i had plans to actually sit down with just sound enabled and compare the sound effects of the skill of when you land vs when you miss positionals.

[Iyrnthota]

I think DRG has it as well but it's BARELY noticeable. i had plans to actually sit down with just sound enabled and compare the sound effects of the skill of when you land vs when you miss positionals.

I had planned the same myself.
Though, that we're struggling to tell if it exists tells me whatever might already there is definitely not enough imo

[RyuDragnier]

Perhaps there is one, but only on StB+ melee jobs. Does RPR have something I wonder?

There is no distinct difference in sounds when you hit a positional, but I do wish there was, or at least something visible on the damage numbers when it happens for all melee DPS. Idk, like a small star or something?