Shield/Pure Healer Split Feedback

[Supersnow845]

Spreadlo still costs the initial GCD. It is never free. You will now have to compare spreadlo to damage if optimizing your own kit, or vs WHM you would have to compare it simply to each healer's ability to keep the party alive, and that boils down to making sure the party has enough HP to survive an incoming attack. When you look at things through this lens, you then can see where WHM at worst is dead even with the other healers due to their ability to quickly restore health to the party.

Stacked mitigation also means nothing. Even 100% mitigation means next to nothing if the incoming attack doesn't wipe out the HP bars. If GCD mitigation, and mitigation in general was as useful as you're making it out to be, then yes, WHM would be left behind the other healers. This isn't the case though. In addition because WHM is straight forward with an entirely passive job gauge, along with its raw healing power; it is very easy for a new player to pick this job and be just as effective as a seasoned SCH, SGE, or AST. I know you strongly dislike WHM. The game doesn't though, as much as you would like to believe that.

Honest question, do you play any savage or ultimate, literally every single raidwide will one shot you without at least one mitigation, third and fourth floor generally need at least 2, ultimate can need up to 4, and this is just the raidwides, mechanics need mitigation as well, P4S for example has around 30 instances of one shot damage in a 14 minute fight, temperance ain’t coveting that mitigation is king over strong healing, getting one shot by a mechanic makes your healing throughput completely useless and that’s where WHM struggles.

Free mitigation is just so much more useful than anything WHM can offer because again getting one shot by a mechanic invalidates all other healing

And on the subject of spreadlo like I said under dissipation it’s free because you get three aetherflow that refund you the damage lost by one broil

[Gemina]

Honest question, do you play any savage or ultimate, literally every single raidwide will one shot you without at least one mitigation, third and fourth floor generally need at least 2, ultimate can need up to 4, and this is just the raidwides, mechanics need mitigation as well, P4S for example has around 30 instances of one shot damage in a 14 minute fight, temperance ain’t coveting that mitigation is king over strong healing, getting one shot by a mechanic makes your healing throughput completely useless and that’s where WHM struggles.

Free mitigation is just so much more useful than anything WHM can offer because again getting one shot by a mechanic invalidates all other healing

And on the subject of spreadlo like I said under dissipation it’s free because you get three aetherflow that refund you the damage lost by one broil

In order for this argument to be valid, a composition consisting of at least one WHM would have to be incapable of clearing the content. Whether or not I have participated in savage or ultimate has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. That is not what is being called into question here. The relevant matter is WHM's effectiveness in all content in FFXIV. You can talk about all the raid wides until your blue in the face, and the fact will remain that if a composition consisting of at least one WHM can take care of it, then their need for mitigation is zero.

WHM has free mitigation BTW. Both AoE and single target. So again I ask what is your point?

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free. It will ALWAYS cost you one GCD, a GCD that can and VERY likely should be used towards damage. As a SCH main, even I hate to admit that spreadlo is near worthless. A truly antiquated, relic of a skill that has somehow survived since ARR. Really cool animation and sound effect though. I will give it that.

[Supersnow845]

In order for this argument to be valid, a composition consisting of at least one WHM would have to be incapable of clearing the content. Whether or not I have participated in savage or ultimate has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. That is not what is being called into question here. The relevant matter is WHM's effectiveness in all content in FFXIV. You can talk about all the raid wides until your blue in the face, and the fact will remain that if a composition consisting of at least one WHM can take care of it, then their need for mitigation is zero.

WHM has free mitigation BTW. Both AoE and single target. So again I ask what is your point?

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free. It will ALWAYS cost you one GCD, a GCD that can and VERY likely should be used towards damage. As a SCH main, even I hate to admit that spreadlo is near worthless. A truly antiquated, relic of a skill that has somehow survived since ARR. Really cool animation and sound effect though. I will give it that.

WHM can clear the content, you know why, because the other healer is carrying the mitigation, saying the class is fine because it’s being carried by the other healer is not a valid statement, double WHM cannot clear week 1 because it doesn’t have enough mitigation, this shows it lacking in mitigation, okay you might say AST is also lacking in mitigation, but AST brings something to the table to cover for that weakness, WHM does not

And seriously if you are a SCH and don’t see a value in spreadlo then I have no idea what game you are playing because it certainly isn’t FFXIV where spreadlo is in contention for the single most overpowered ability in the game across any of the 19 classes

[Kabzy]

And seriously if you are a SCH and don’t see a value in spreadlo then I have no idea what game you are playing because it certainly isn’t FFXIV where spreadlo is in contention for the single most overpowered ability in the game across any of the 19 classes

I wouldn't call it worthless, but it's not the most overpowered ability when it's suboptimal to use in all content bar ultimate. In fact the only real time you can use it in current savage is the couple of GCDs you get for free before the adds phase on P3S. Gemina is correct in that it's not free, and outside of ultimate it's a waste when abilities like Expedient and Consolation mitigate any raidwide efficiently.

[Renathras]

I wouldn't call it worthless, but it's not the most overpowered ability when it's suboptimal to use in all content bar ultimate. In fact the only real time you can use it in current savage is the couple of GCDs you get for free before the adds phase on P3S. Gemina is correct in that it's not free, and outside of ultimate it's a waste when abilities like Expedient and Consolation mitigate any raidwide efficiently.

I think a lot of people don't understand what optimal and suboptimal REALLY mean.

You're trading 1 Broil for a Spreadlo.

That's it.

295 potency of damage. Somewhere in the ballpark of, what, 10,000 damage? Which is, what, around 0.01% of a boss' health bar?

That's RIDICULOUSLY insignificant. No fight in the game is going to be won or lost by that amount of damage outside of that clutch Ultimate where a Carby got the final hit in. This idea that using ANY GCD for a non-damage spell is going to cost the fight seriously needs to die in a fire. Especially when we start factoring in alternatives - any time a DPS dies, it is a bigger DPS loss than a lost Broil if using an Adlo instead of a Broil could have saved the DPS's life. There is no exception to that rule.

This slavish devotion to "every GCD must be an attack spell" is ridiculous bordering on mental illness.

Yes, it's a "DPS loss", but a loss THAT WILL NOT BE RELEVANT in almost any content, and quite possibly IN ANY content. If the rest of your team is competent, you should not be bumping into an Enrage over ONE lost Broil. Ever. If you are, then it's not the SCH that's the problem, it's the rest of the party being WAY MORE SUBOPTIMAL than one lost Broil.

Now, are there generally better tools? Yes. If the party isn't messing up mechanics, we have so many oGCDs now we can deal with almost anything. But this idea that casting a Succor or Adlo is going to be "suboptimal" and cause fight failures is ridiculous and borderline insane. Especially when a Deploy Critlo can prevent needing to use some other oGCDs, allowing the SCH to save them for later and them (or their co-healer) to not have to cast GCD heals (2 or more) at a different point in the fight.

So it's not always even a DPS loss on the fight as a whole since optimal is based on the WHOLE PARTY not a single character. If a Deploy Critlo now means a WHM won't have to cast 2x Cure 3s later, that's a net DPS gain for the party.

EDIT:

"WHM has zero unique capabilities, worse free healing, and its personal damage is never enough to make up for this, and it ends up falling into last place as far as high end desirability on a constant basis because of this" != "WHM is incapable of clearing content".

I swear it's like Scholar mains *want* their job to be worst in role or something, because they constantly dismiss actual balancing problems with WHM in favor of complaining that the strongest shield in the game "feeeels weak" because it costs a GCD, despite nearly every single raid tier's data showing SCH consistently as one of the most powerful healers in the game. Scholar isn't weak, it's just boring. WHM is boring AND weak.

Given our past interactions, I never thought I'd say this but...

I agree with Semirhage.

Mostly (I don't find SCH boring...but then I don't find WHM boring, either, just I find SCH more enjoyable, even if I hate Dissipation to the point I don't even have it on my bar - fite me!! )

I know...I'm scared too. XD

I guess my thing is I'm a semi-omni healer (WHM, SCH, and SGE - AST is the only one I don't touch other than bumping up to level cap each expansion when I get around to it), so I compare and contrast them a lot. On WHM, I consistently feel like I'm missing "something". Like doing the Dead Ends final boss (the one "whose steps were light and quick"), it does periodic raidwides. While I don't NEED to mitigate them, I always have a mitigation up often enough on all healers...except WHM. I use Temperance on the first, then when the second comes around...

...

...

Nothing. Because WHM doesn't have a second thing. Asylum (despite the name) doesn't offer protection, and Temperance's CD is 2 minutes. WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

While the party CAN take the damage, it feels weird not having a mitigation tool TO use when I do on SCH and SGE. I feel like even AST is better off because it has 2 party mitigation tools and a party shield so that's functionally 3x the mitigation tools/frequency of what WHM has.

[Supersnow845]

.

EDIT:



Given our past interactions, I never thought I'd say this but...

I agree with Semirhage.

Mostly (I don't find SCH boring...but then I don't find WHM boring, either, just I find SCH more enjoyable, even if I hate Dissipation to the point I don't even have it on my bar - fite me!! )

I know...I'm scared too. XD

I guess my thing is I'm a semi-omni healer (WHM, SCH, and SGE - AST is the only one I don't touch other than bumping up to level cap each expansion when I get around to it), so I compare and contrast them a lot. On WHM, I consistently feel like I'm missing "something". Like doing the Dead Ends final boss (the one "whose steps were light and quick"), it does periodic raidwides. While I don't NEED to mitigate them, I always have a mitigation up often enough on all healers...except WHM. I use Temperance on the first, then when the second comes around...

...

...

Nothing. Because WHM doesn't have a second thing. Asylum (despite the name) doesn't offer protection, and Temperance's CD is 2 minutes. WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

While the party CAN take the damage, it feels weird not having a mitigation tool TO use when I do on SCH and SGE. I feel like even AST is better off because it has 2 party mitigation tools and a party shield so that's functionally 3x the mitigation tools/frequency of what WHM has.

This is a really good explanation, you play all healers semi consistently and you just notice holes in WHM, lack of mitigation you are just programmed to hit on the other healers, lack of consistent use clutch single target heals, lack of meaningful sustain outside of HP ping pong, lack of weave slots

WHM just feels like it’s playing a different game and it doesn’t play well in 14

[Kabzy]

...

So it's not always even a DPS loss on the fight as a whole since optimal is based on the WHOLE PARTY not a single character. If a Deploy Critlo now means a WHM won't have to cast 2x Cure 3s later, that's a net DPS gain for the party.

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means. It's not the people who shaped the game into what it is right now, the reason people don't want to spend GCDs on healing and why it is optimal is because there's no need to. In fact outside of ultimate, there would be no reason to cast any healing GCDs. You're never in this scenario you mentioned at the end if everyone was playing optimally. Using a GCD heal to rectify a mistake will never be seen as optimal play.

Granted not everyone does play optimally, in fact most people don't, but theorycrafting is a lot different to actual gameplay. And this applies to many scenarios. AST, for example, is only better than WHM in the most optimal of groups. If you go down from top percentiles, you'll notice WHM takes over in damage. In fact for some duties like DSR, WHM is currently at the top. Nobody talks about that though because theorycrafting is based around the jobs maximum potential, and in that scenario AST wins. You can't just pick and choose when you want to look at the top end of play and when not.

I do agree though that it would be a nicer system for healers if we did have to use GCD heals more. Personally I'd be a fan of reverting to the ARR days where you have 1 emergency heal and the rest GCDs. But this is a conversation that has been had many times and I don't think it's getting anyone anywhere.

[vetch]

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means. It's not the people who shaped the game into what it is right now, the reason people don't want to spend GCDs on healing and why it is optimal is because there's no need to. In fact outside of ultimate, there would be no reason to cast any healing GCDs. You're never in this scenario you mentioned at the end if everyone was playing optimally. Using a GCD heal to rectify a mistake will never be seen as optimal play.

You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

[Deceptus]

WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

WHM does have a succor equivalent, it's called Medica II, and that medica 2 heals for far more than succor does (520p vs 1000p).

You have to look at shield healers based on their shields and regen healers based on their regens.

[Mimilu]

Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

WHM does have a succor equivalent, it's called Medica II, and that medica 2 heals for far more than succor does (520p vs 1000p).

You have to look at shield healers based on their shields and regen healers based on their regens.

But shields also absorb damage, which can prevent a partymember from being KO'ed.
Medica II can't heal those who are KO'ed. (❁°͈▵°͈)