Shield/Pure Healer Split Feedback

[Renathras]

Recently I had to unleash some praying mantis kung-fu when I mentioned that WHM isn't in a bad place among the other healers despite their lack of mitigation ability. It's almost like players want this job to be in a bad place, and in perpetual misery. Mitigation has been the chief go-to argument in this regard.

Oh, don't mistake me. WHM is FUNCTIONAL as a healer in FFXIV right now.

But, it's the weakest in terms of high end fights (when it matters; anyone can clear low end fights, often without a healer), and that's why it's fallen out in terms of the meta, speedkill runs, and so on. As others have pointed out, mitigation matters. Extreme fights you can save a DPS from death with a critlo (or sometimes just a regular Adlo) if they got clipped by one boss ability (so have a vuln stack) and are about to eat a second. Your WHM Bene can get them to 100% health, but that next attack dealing 105% of their healthbar means they still die. On the other hand, a Sacred Soil lowering that damage by 10% (so down to around 95%) or an Adlo giving them 20% of their health as overshield (so they survive the hit with 15% health remaining) DO prevent their death.

This is why mitigation and shielding are better.

The only case that pure healing has an edge is in Doom heal checks, like SoS's opening where everyone's HP drops to 1 and you have to fullheal everyone before the timer runs out or they KO. But when we look at those cases, literally every healer is capable of getting that job done (with their heal partner). SGE/SGE or SCH/SCH have enough healing to meet the check if they have the gear level for it. Pre-Seraph, drop Soil, pop Illumination, Excog on each tank (for SCH/SCH), Emergency Tactics Succor, Consolation, Indom. Bam, you've healed everyone, no WHM or even AST needed. You probably don't even need ALL OF THAT healing. Honestly, an Illumination 2x Indoms and 2x Emergency Succor probably will already do the job without needing the rest.

Likewise, multi-hit attacks like ZodEx's lasers can be shielded (so barriers help) and mitigated (so damage reduction mitigation helps).

So there's no case where you NEED pure healing, and any case that pure healing is useful, barrier healing is just as effective. So your equality is wrong:

It's not pure = barrier.

It's pure = barrier in the case barriers don't work AND pure < barrier when barriers DO work.

There's no case where pure > barrier.

Add to this that WHM has the fewest barriers, fewest mitigations, AND doesn't have a party damage buff like SCH and AST do, and you end up with it being the weakest of all worlds.

It's still USABLE, but it's also still the weakest.

.

EDIT:

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free.

Okay, I'm a BIT confused.

On the one hand, you're saying in this post that as long as a party with 1 WHM can clear content, it's cool. But then you say this. In what case is a SCH foregoing one Broil's worth of damage to cast an Adlo going to lead to failing an Enrage? In regular content (all the stuff you say matters), there's no time that's the case. Do any non-Extreme/Savage in the game on a SCH and cast ZERO BROILS and you'll still clear the content. There may be one or two very rare exceptions (the twin sword sisters at the end of Ghimlit Dark have a DPS check, I think), but these are extremely rare cases and you may not even need the healer to attack to clear them.

So what does it matter that it is "NEVER free" by costing a single damage GCD when you're talking about normal content and not Extreme/Savage/Ultimate?

The only time losing out on 1 Broil's worth of damage WOULD matter is Extreme/Savage/Ultimate, in which case Spreadlo saving DPS from dying is more important since a dead DPS or Raised DPS is going to cost the party FAR more damage than your one Broil will.

This is the weirdest "academic" argument I've ever heard, as you're arguing out both sides. On the one hand, you act like you're talking about normal content so mitigation doesn't matter, but then you keep pinging this DPS loss argument, which ONLY matters in high end content where MITIGATION ALSO matters.

The premise of the argument is nonsensical. You need to pick one or the other.

If we're talking Normal content:

Yes, mitigation rarely (or never) matters. Even saving a DPS from death with a clutch Adlo is going to be completely irrelevant in...Labyrinth of the Ancients. BUT, by that same token, you missing out on one Broil isn't going to cause your party to wipe to Xande, either.

If we're talking Extreme/Savage/Ultimate content:

NOW the tradeoff of damage GCD for mitigation GCD matters...but if that mitigation GCD saves a DPS from dying, it's a net gain. Moreover, it's EXTREMELY rare you're going to miss a damage check due to the loss of a single Broil unless your party is barely able to clear the fight anyway.

So in the latter case, the damage cost matters, but the mitigation matters more. In the former case, neither matter, so why are you even worried about losing 1 Broil's worth of Damage while running Sasthasha normal?

Your argument just seems nonsensical since the only time it DOES matter is when it DOESN'T matter. Which makes no sense. In logic, "A" and "Not A" cannot be true at the same time.

[Sebazy]

It's a bit of a classic case of WHM being made for a game that doesn't exist.... Yet again =(

WHM has really solid oGCD mitigation tools to aid tanks. Benison and Aquaveil are really solid at that.

Of course, this is at a point where tank healing at the end game is about as relevant as it is in Sastasha

[Rilifane]

Gemina is right: Adlo is never free outside prepull/ transitions.
Even if you use Dissipation, the stacks could have been used on ED and as such, you're still paying opportunity costs for it. Because Dissipation doesn't only become available after a Spreadlo, it's always an option to use for additional 300 potency or additional AF heals if you'd have to dip into GCD heals otherwise - not just after a Spreadlo.

I disagree though that Spreadlo is near worthless or a relic of the past.
It's the strongest shield in the game that rarely gets used. The reason for this isn't that it's weak, the reason is that it becomes easier with time to get by without it (gear, experience, better coordination) but Spreadlo itself is very strong and if a boss has transitions like p2s or p3s that give you time to quickly prepare one, it's a lot of free shielding that has the unique advantage of being able to get buffed by single target heal buffs and healing magic increases like Dissipation and Fey Illumination.

• Protraction: 594 potency
• Protraction, Krasis: 712 potency
• Protraction, Krasis, Dissipation: 855 potency

If you have a BRD you can even cross the 1k threshhold without wasting any raidwide heal increases specifically for it like Asylum, Mantra or FE. These are all single target heal buffs that would otherwise get ignored/ go to waste.
And it is something you can prepare up to 30s in advance, making it much stronger during transitions compared to direct heals and even regens.

It's also still strong for cheesing mechanics like tank lb3 strat for Curtain Call. I recommend looking it up on YT if you have never seen it, it's hilarious to watch.
Just the properly buffed Spreadlo takes care of 850-1000 (or more if you push it) potency worth of damage taken which easily soaks several of the explosions going off with 80% mitigation from tank lb3 alone. Can other healer comps do this as well? Yes. But having a SCH in your team makes it a lot safer and less prone to errors from slightly mistimed mitigation or explosions.
Or the heal buff you get after FoF. Spreadlo is still a dps loss but the buffed shield alone can take care of both aoes and several tank autos, giving both healers time to recover resources after FoF to have big cooldowns for Life's Agonies up again if they didn't bring an Macrocosmos cheese AST.

None of that matters once you get a bit of gear though so yes, Spreadlo quickly loses value. It's unfortunately the lowest skill on the priority list outside transitions and the first to get ditched; I wish it wasn't because I like the unique advantage it has but you're not going to Spreadlo if a Recit + Indom does the trick.
Followed by SS which was the strongest heal that got ditched first before EW because of its AF cost.

And that WHM can clear content is also a poor metric to measure the worth of the class and one SE unfortunately seems to use to repeatedly tell us directly and indirectly that WHM is fine.
In reality it simply brings nothing special to the table that is an actual gain and other healers can't do equally well or better.

[Valmaxian]

I get the impression that Yoshi sees the healers like this:

WHM/SGE: Entry-level Pure/Shield healers
AST/SCH: More challenging Pure/Shield healers

I don't like this as a design philosophy, but it just feels like they are pushing it, and obviously the healer community wants more nuance to all these jobs regardless of player skill. They are going to leave WHM bare-bones, SGE = watered down SCH, AST is our convoluted WHM with a bit more potential for speed kills, and SCH = the actual shield healer. But the effective gameplay style remains the same 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 (or just 3-3-3-3-3-3 in AoE situations).

[Mortex]

In order for this argument to be valid, a composition consisting of at least one WHM would have to be incapable of clearing the content. Whether or not I have participated in savage or ultimate has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. That is not what is being called into question here. The relevant matter is WHM's effectiveness in all content in FFXIV. You can talk about all the raid wides until your blue in the face, and the fact will remain that if a composition consisting of at least one WHM can take care of it, then their need for mitigation is zero.

WHM has free mitigation BTW. Both AoE and single target. So again I ask what is your point?

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free. It will ALWAYS cost you one GCD, a GCD that can and VERY likely should be used towards damage. As a SCH main, even I hate to admit that spreadlo is near worthless. A truly antiquated, relic of a skill that has somehow survived since ARR. Really cool animation and sound effect though. I will give it that.

The point is a spreadlo with a decent number of situations can save you around 1 or 2 gcd heals in multi hit situations when used in combination with % mitigation (1-2 gcd for both healer) . For example dsr p7 gigaflare or akh morn tower. The gain outweighs a decent number of times the cost.

[Supersnow845]

The point is a spreadlo with a decent number of situations can save you around 1 or 2 gcd heals in multi hit situations when used in combination with % mitigation (1-2 gcd for both healer) . For example dsr p7 gigaflare or akh morn tower. The gain outweighs a decent number of times the cost.

You can also use it to save mitigation on orbs in P4 which generally leads to you not needing to have to GCD healing on the subsequent tower phase where you are generally short on mitigation because the general strat is to kitchen sink the orbs mitigation

It’s quite often a benefit even if you are taking it from the perspective of “every adlo is a loss” but that also comes down to whether you consider dissipation energy drain as a gain to use or a loss to not use

[Mortex]

Oh, don't mistake me. WHM is FUNCTIONAL as a healer in FFXIV right now.

But, it's the weakest in terms of high end fights (when it matters; anyone can clear low end fights, often without a healer), and that's why it's fallen out in terms of the meta, speedkill runs, and so on. As others have pointed out, mitigation matters. Extreme fights you can save a DPS from death with a critlo (or sometimes just a regular Adlo) if they got clipped by one boss ability (so have a vuln stack) and are about to eat a second. Your WHM Bene can get them to 100% health, but that next attack dealing 105% of their healthbar means they still die. On the other hand, a Sacred Soil lowering that damage by 10% (so down to around 95%) or an Adlo giving them 20% of their health as overshield (so they survive the hit with 15% health remaining) DO prevent their death.

This is why mitigation and shielding are better.

The only case that pure healing has an edge is in Doom heal checks, like SoS's opening where everyone's HP drops to 1 and you have to fullheal everyone before the timer runs out or they KO. But when we look at those cases, literally every healer is capable of getting that job done (with their heal partner). SGE/SGE or SCH/SCH have enough healing to meet the check if they have the gear level for it. Pre-Seraph, drop Soil, pop Illumination, Excog on each tank (for SCH/SCH), Emergency Tactics Succor, Consolation, Indom. Bam, you've healed everyone, no WHM or even AST needed. You probably don't even need ALL OF THAT healing. Honestly, an Illumination 2x Indoms and 2x Emergency Succor probably will already do the job without needing the rest.

Likewise, multi-hit attacks like ZodEx's lasers can be shielded (so barriers help) and mitigated (so damage reduction mitigation helps).

So there's no case where you NEED pure healing, and any case that pure healing is useful, barrier healing is just as effective. So your equality is wrong:

It's not pure = barrier.

It's pure = barrier in the case barriers don't work AND pure < barrier when barriers DO work.

There's no case where pure > barrier.

Add to this that WHM has the fewest barriers, fewest mitigations, AND doesn't have a party damage buff like SCH and AST do, and you end up with it being the weakest of all worlds..

Also in a long run a big ass shield worth 50% of the party’s hp with good mitigation is worth 2 gcd from both healer you normally would have to heal. God king phase in dsr pushes the gcd and ogcd use if you go for the standard 2-3-3 tower (like no one in his right mind now plays 2-3-3 and rather goes 1-1-6 with kitchen sink and immunity on the tanks) and in combination with the gigaflare proximity bombs the entire phase is a mitigation fest and a big ass shield that blocks 1-2 of these hits is a godsend

[ForteNightshade]

For anyone arguing WHM's deficiencies aren't a problem. I'll point to the singular healer comp that, while still viable, is severely limited: WHM and AST.

Now could it be Astro's kit contributing to the problem? To some extent, yes. Earthly Star, for example, trips over Assize as the two abilities often are up at comparable times and rarely is 1,120 healing potency ever needed in the spam of 20 seconds. Otherwise, Astro's healing kit cooperates fairly well with both Sage and Scholar. Of course, what actually keeps the job alive is raid buffs. Now on the flip side, White Mage and Scholar are the only two healing who force one another to GCD heal at least once because their kits can't synergize. They simply run out of oGCDs. I believe Scholar can mitigate this by dropping some Energy Drains but either way, it's a DPS loss. Sage works well but effectively carrying White Mage's deficiencies due to having so much free healing resources.

And it's that last point that causes problem. Astro simply can't carry White Mage. Even with the bevy of tools at its disposal, it still lacks mitigation options unique to shield healers. Okay, great! That's the whole point of having both a "Pure" and "Shield" healer.

Except Sage and Scholar synergize beautifully. In fact, if it weren't for Sage lacking a raid buff, this would be the meta comp without question. At least out of early prog. Mitigating damage as a whole is simply widely superior compared to healing it because all healers need to be capable of healing. Thus, you can't have either White Mage or Astro truly be a powerhouse in this category. And because they simply refuse to make outgoing damage demand shields, mitigation and raw healing, the former two dominate—in particular mitigation—once ilvl creep starts to trivialize everything. The long and short of it is White Mage needs to be carried for it to be both effective and efficient. Can it clear content? Absolutely. Can it do so without GCD healing? Yep. But every other healer can simply do it significantly better.

White Mage's "identity" is leeching off its co-healers better designed healing kits. Which wouldn't inherently be bad... if it had the damage potential to justify that. It doesn't.

[Supersnow845]

For anyone arguing WHM's deficiencies aren't a problem. I'll point to the singular healer comp that, while still viable, is severely limited: WHM and AST.

Now could it be Astro's kit contributing to the problem? To some extent, yes. Earthly Star, for example, trips over Assize as the two abilities often are up at comparable times and rarely is 1,120 healing potency ever needed in the spam of 20 seconds. Otherwise, Astro's healing kit cooperates fairly well with both Sage and Scholar. Of course, what actually keeps the job alive is raid buffs. Now on the flip side, White Mage and Scholar are the only two healing who force one another to GCD heal at least once because their kits can't synergize. They simply run out of oGCDs. I believe Scholar can mitigate this by dropping some Energy Drains but either way, it's a DPS loss. Sage works well but effectively carrying White Mage's deficiencies due to having so much free healing resources.

And it's that last point that causes problem. Astro simply can't carry White Mage. Even with the bevy of tools at its disposal, it still lacks mitigation options unique to shield healers. Okay, great! That's the whole point of having both a "Pure" and "Shield" healer.

Except Sage and Scholar synergize beautifully. In fact, if it weren't for Sage lacking a raid buff, this would be the meta comp without question. At least out of early prog. Mitigating damage as a whole is simply widely superior compared to healing it because all healers need to be capable of healing. Thus, you can't have either White Mage or Astro truly be a powerhouse in this category. And because they simply refuse to make outgoing damage demand shields, mitigation and raw healing, the former two dominate—in particular mitigation—once ilvl creep starts to trivialize everything. The long and short of it is White Mage needs to be carried for it to be both effective and efficient. Can it clear content? Absolutely. Can it do so without GCD healing? Yep. But every other healer can simply do it significantly better.

White Mage's "identity" is leeching off its co-healers better designed healing kits. Which wouldn't inherently be bad... if it had the damage potential to justify that. It doesn't.

I think this just seeps into the idea of regen healers are built for a game that isn’t 14, shield healers feel like they are designed for 14, regen healers feel like they are designed for MOP

[Payadopa]

Honestly, I think it's dumb and arbitrary. Regen healers have shields, shield healers have regens. It's pointless. I don't think anything of value was gained that way.