Shield/Pure Healer Split Feedback

[Gemina]

I agree with your overall position (especially the last paragraph), but I wanted to correct something here:

It's not so much the SHIELDS that are useful (though they can be in Extremes and Savages, especially extremes where someone can mess up but you can clutch save them and still beat enrage reliably; I can't speak to Ultimates because I haven't done those), it's the MITIGATION that's useful. Things like Sacred Soil are far more useful than things like Succor. Special mention goes to Deployment Tactics Crit-Adlos with Seraph Consolation, but that's the exception that proves the rule. Crit Spreadlo is a meme/notable BECAUSE of how powerful it is.

But the real benefit is the mitigation. Which is also why WHM is in the dust. AST has party buffs and some mitigation. SGE has no buffs but lots of mitigation. SCH has a buff AND lots of mitigation. So it's no surprise why AST/SCH and/or SGE/SCH are the go-to "meta" picks right now, with AST/SGE having honorable mention.

WHM has Temperance and no other form of actual mitigation (Benison is nice, but you only have 2 of them at a time, with Aquaveil floating around, leaving 5 party members with no protection), and it has no party buff to make up for lacking out on the mitigation front.

Recently I had to unleash some praying mantis kung-fu when I mentioned that WHM isn't in a bad place among the other healers despite their lack of mitigation ability. It's almost like players want this job to be in a bad place, and in perpetual misery. Mitigation has been the chief go-to argument in this regard.

Mitigation comes in two forms, and two methods of application from my observation. The first are barriers that are actually capable of extending the max HP of the target. These have their own HP and 'break' once this amount is depleted. Examples would be SCH Adlo, or AST Celestial Intersect. The second is straight damage reduction. This kind of mitigation remains active so long as the duration timer is not at zero. Examples would be SCH Sacred Soil, or WHM Temperance. Application comes via the GCD or oGCDs, which is also important when it comes to evaluating their effectiveness. While barrier type mitigation can be applied by both methods, straight damage reduction only come via oGCD.

When it comes to mitigation, in order for it to be effective utility, it needs to somehow translate to faster death to the opposition. It isn't death prevention. I strongly dislike this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. If the ability is an oGCD, then there is no discussion to be had when it comes to their effectiveness, and there is nothing to compare the ability to. It is free mitigation every XX seconds, so there is no point to not use these skills. The true battle takes place with GCD mitigation, and whether to use them vs a straight heal via GCD (assuming you are exhausted of oGCD heals), or if you should be using it for damage.

In the case of a GCD shield vs a GCD heal, they both essentially do the same thing, and they provide HP to the target to prevent them from getting KO'd from an incoming attack. All that matters in this scenario is that the target has enough HP to survive the upcoming attack, making the shield completely irrelevant. We have to start to look at MP economy in order to make comparisons at this point.

In the case of GCD shield vs damage, the latter wins every time so long as the GCD being used for damage does not translate to a player dying because you did not heal them. In this case, it reverts back to GCD shield vs GCD heal.

What all this means is GCD mitigation serves no purpose in FFXIV, and the cases where it would actually beat out a GCD heal that does the same thing, or straight damage are so few and far between that it warrants being looked at by the dev team. Especially if they truly want to have a barrier/pure healer dichotomy. Right now, this line is so blurred it may as well not even be there. The good news about that is it leaves WHM in a much better place than some players will give it credit for.

Healing in FFXIV = (Enough HP to survive attack + 1)

[Supersnow845]

When it comes to mitigation, in order for it to be effective utility, it needs to somehow translate to faster death to the opposition. It isn't death prevention. I strongly dislike this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. If the ability is an oGCD, then there is no discussion to be had when it comes to their effectiveness, and there is nothing to compare the ability to. It is free mitigation every XX seconds, so there is no point to not use these skills. The true battle takes place with GCD mitigation, and whether to use them vs a straight heal via GCD (assuming you are exhausted of oGCD heals), or if you should be using it for damage.

In the case of a GCD shield vs a GCD heal, they both essentially do the same thing, and they provide HP to the target to prevent them from getting KO'd from an incoming attack. All that matters in this scenario is that the target has enough HP to survive the upcoming attack, making the shield completely irrelevant. We have to start to look at MP economy in order to make comparisons at this point.

In the case of GCD shield vs damage, the latter wins every time so long as the GCD being used for damage does not translate to a player dying because you did not heal them. In this case, it reverts back to GCD shield vs GCD heal.

What all this means is GCD mitigation serves no purpose in FFXIV, and the cases where it would actually beat out a GCD heal that does the same thing, or straight damage are so few and far between that it warrants being looked at by the dev team. Especially if they truly want to have a barrier/pure healer dichotomy. Right now, this line is so blurred it may as well not even be there. The good news about that is it leaves WHM in a much better place than some players will give it credit for.

Healing in FFXIV = (Enough HP to survive attack + 1)

I mean even if you ignore GCD shields in two minutes SGE has 5 instances of 10% group wide mitigation (of which you can stack 2 of these 5), SCH has 5 10% and 1 5% of which 2 of the 10% and the 5% can all be stacked, AST has 2 10% and WHM has 1 10%

So even coming from the perspective of “only free mitigation is useful” (and this is ignoring things like how spreadlo is free under dissipation because the energy drain refunds the cost of 1 broil) then WHM is still left far behind the shield healers and behind AST’s much more functional and flexible 2 times (to say nothing of AST’s shields), in comparison WHM offers nothing of benefit

[Gemina]

I mean even if you ignore GCD shields in two minutes SGE has 5 instances of 10% group wide mitigation (of which you can stack 2 of these 5), SCH has 5 10% and 1 5% of which 2 of the 10% and the 5% can all be stacked, AST has 2 10% and WHM has 1 10%

So even coming from the perspective of “only free mitigation is useful” (and this is ignoring things like how spreadlo is free under dissipation because the energy drain refunds the cost of 1 broil) then WHM is still left far behind the shield healers and behind AST’s much more functional and flexible 2 times (to say nothing of AST’s shields), in comparison WHM offers nothing of benefit

Spreadlo still costs the initial GCD. It is never free. You will now have to compare spreadlo to damage if optimizing your own kit, or vs WHM you would have to compare it simply to each healer's ability to keep the party alive, and that boils down to making sure the party has enough HP to survive an incoming attack. When you look at things through this lens, you then can see where WHM at worst is dead even with the other healers due to their ability to quickly restore health to the party.

Stacked mitigation also means nothing. Even 100% mitigation means next to nothing if the incoming attack doesn't wipe out the HP bars. If GCD mitigation, and mitigation in general was as useful as you're making it out to be, then yes, WHM would be left behind the other healers. This isn't the case though. In addition because WHM is straight forward with an entirely passive job gauge, along with its raw healing power; it is very easy for a new player to pick this job and be just as effective as a seasoned SCH, SGE, or AST. I know you strongly dislike WHM. The game doesn't though, as much as you would like to believe that.

[Supersnow845]

Spreadlo still costs the initial GCD. It is never free. You will now have to compare spreadlo to damage if optimizing your own kit, or vs WHM you would have to compare it simply to each healer's ability to keep the party alive, and that boils down to making sure the party has enough HP to survive an incoming attack. When you look at things through this lens, you then can see where WHM at worst is dead even with the other healers due to their ability to quickly restore health to the party.

Stacked mitigation also means nothing. Even 100% mitigation means next to nothing if the incoming attack doesn't wipe out the HP bars. If GCD mitigation, and mitigation in general was as useful as you're making it out to be, then yes, WHM would be left behind the other healers. This isn't the case though. In addition because WHM is straight forward with an entirely passive job gauge, along with its raw healing power; it is very easy for a new player to pick this job and be just as effective as a seasoned SCH, SGE, or AST. I know you strongly dislike WHM. The game doesn't though, as much as you would like to believe that.

Honest question, do you play any savage or ultimate, literally every single raidwide will one shot you without at least one mitigation, third and fourth floor generally need at least 2, ultimate can need up to 4, and this is just the raidwides, mechanics need mitigation as well, P4S for example has around 30 instances of one shot damage in a 14 minute fight, temperance ain’t coveting that mitigation is king over strong healing, getting one shot by a mechanic makes your healing throughput completely useless and that’s where WHM struggles.

Free mitigation is just so much more useful than anything WHM can offer because again getting one shot by a mechanic invalidates all other healing

And on the subject of spreadlo like I said under dissipation it’s free because you get three aetherflow that refund you the damage lost by one broil

[Gemina]

Honest question, do you play any savage or ultimate, literally every single raidwide will one shot you without at least one mitigation, third and fourth floor generally need at least 2, ultimate can need up to 4, and this is just the raidwides, mechanics need mitigation as well, P4S for example has around 30 instances of one shot damage in a 14 minute fight, temperance ain’t coveting that mitigation is king over strong healing, getting one shot by a mechanic makes your healing throughput completely useless and that’s where WHM struggles.

Free mitigation is just so much more useful than anything WHM can offer because again getting one shot by a mechanic invalidates all other healing

And on the subject of spreadlo like I said under dissipation it’s free because you get three aetherflow that refund you the damage lost by one broil

In order for this argument to be valid, a composition consisting of at least one WHM would have to be incapable of clearing the content. Whether or not I have participated in savage or ultimate has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. That is not what is being called into question here. The relevant matter is WHM's effectiveness in all content in FFXIV. You can talk about all the raid wides until your blue in the face, and the fact will remain that if a composition consisting of at least one WHM can take care of it, then their need for mitigation is zero.

WHM has free mitigation BTW. Both AoE and single target. So again I ask what is your point?

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free. It will ALWAYS cost you one GCD, a GCD that can and VERY likely should be used towards damage. As a SCH main, even I hate to admit that spreadlo is near worthless. A truly antiquated, relic of a skill that has somehow survived since ARR. Really cool animation and sound effect though. I will give it that.

[Supersnow845]

In order for this argument to be valid, a composition consisting of at least one WHM would have to be incapable of clearing the content. Whether or not I have participated in savage or ultimate has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. That is not what is being called into question here. The relevant matter is WHM's effectiveness in all content in FFXIV. You can talk about all the raid wides until your blue in the face, and the fact will remain that if a composition consisting of at least one WHM can take care of it, then their need for mitigation is zero.

WHM has free mitigation BTW. Both AoE and single target. So again I ask what is your point?

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free. It will ALWAYS cost you one GCD, a GCD that can and VERY likely should be used towards damage. As a SCH main, even I hate to admit that spreadlo is near worthless. A truly antiquated, relic of a skill that has somehow survived since ARR. Really cool animation and sound effect though. I will give it that.

WHM can clear the content, you know why, because the other healer is carrying the mitigation, saying the class is fine because it’s being carried by the other healer is not a valid statement, double WHM cannot clear week 1 because it doesn’t have enough mitigation, this shows it lacking in mitigation, okay you might say AST is also lacking in mitigation, but AST brings something to the table to cover for that weakness, WHM does not

And seriously if you are a SCH and don’t see a value in spreadlo then I have no idea what game you are playing because it certainly isn’t FFXIV where spreadlo is in contention for the single most overpowered ability in the game across any of the 19 classes

[Kabzy]

And seriously if you are a SCH and don’t see a value in spreadlo then I have no idea what game you are playing because it certainly isn’t FFXIV where spreadlo is in contention for the single most overpowered ability in the game across any of the 19 classes

I wouldn't call it worthless, but it's not the most overpowered ability when it's suboptimal to use in all content bar ultimate. In fact the only real time you can use it in current savage is the couple of GCDs you get for free before the adds phase on P3S. Gemina is correct in that it's not free, and outside of ultimate it's a waste when abilities like Expedient and Consolation mitigate any raidwide efficiently.

[Liam_Harper]

As a SCH main, even I hate to admit that spreadlo is near worthless. A truly antiquated, relic of a skill that has somehow survived since ARR. Really cool animation and sound effect though. I will give it that.

Not to be rude but whatever you're on, I'd like some.

[Semirhage]

In order for this argument to be valid, a composition consisting of at least one WHM would have to be incapable of clearing the content. Whether or not I have participated in savage or ultimate has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. That is not what is being called into question here. The relevant matter is WHM's effectiveness in all content in FFXIV. You can talk about all the raid wides until your blue in the face, and the fact will remain that if a composition consisting of at least one WHM can take care of it, then their need for mitigation is zero.

"WHM has zero unique capabilities, worse free healing, and its personal damage is never enough to make up for this, and it ends up falling into last place as far as high end desirability on a constant basis because of this" != "WHM is incapable of clearing content".

I swear it's like Scholar mains *want* their job to be worst in role or something, because they constantly dismiss actual balancing problems with WHM in favor of complaining that the strongest shield in the game "feeeels weak" because it costs a GCD, despite nearly every single raid tier's data showing SCH consistently as one of the most powerful healers in the game. Scholar isn't weak, it's just boring. WHM is boring AND weak.

[Deceptus]

Recently I had to unleash some praying mantis kung-fu when I mentioned that WHM isn't in a bad place among the other healers despite their lack of mitigation ability. It's almost like players want this job to be in a bad place, and in perpetual misery. Mitigation has been the chief go-to argument in this regard.

Mitigation comes in two forms, and two methods of application from my observation. The first are barriers that are actually capable of extending the max HP of the target. These have their own HP and 'break' once this amount is depleted. Examples would be SCH Adlo, or AST Celestial Intersect. The second is straight damage reduction. This kind of mitigation remains active so long as the duration timer is not at zero. Examples would be SCH Sacred Soil, or WHM Temperance. Application comes via the GCD or oGCDs, which is also important when it comes to evaluating their effectiveness. While barrier type mitigation can be applied by both methods, straight damage reduction only come via oGCD.

When it comes to mitigation, in order for it to be effective utility, it needs to somehow translate to faster death to the opposition. It isn't death prevention. I strongly dislike this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. If the ability is an oGCD, then there is no discussion to be had when it comes to their effectiveness, and there is nothing to compare the ability to. It is free mitigation every XX seconds, so there is no point to not use these skills. The true battle takes place with GCD mitigation, and whether to use them vs a straight heal via GCD (assuming you are exhausted of oGCD heals), or if you should be using it for damage.

In the case of a GCD shield vs a GCD heal, they both essentially do the same thing, and they provide HP to the target to prevent them from getting KO'd from an incoming attack. All that matters in this scenario is that the target has enough HP to survive the upcoming attack, making the shield completely irrelevant. We have to start to look at MP economy in order to make comparisons at this point.

In the case of GCD shield vs damage, the latter wins every time so long as the GCD being used for damage does not translate to a player dying because you did not heal them. In this case, it reverts back to GCD shield vs GCD heal.

What all this means is GCD mitigation serves no purpose in FFXIV, and the cases where it would actually beat out a GCD heal that does the same thing, or straight damage are so few and far between that it warrants being looked at by the dev team. Especially if they truly want to have a barrier/pure healer dichotomy. Right now, this line is so blurred it may as well not even be there. The good news about that is it leaves WHM in a much better place than some players will give it credit for.

Healing in FFXIV = (Enough HP to survive attack + 1)

Had a discussion on reddit with someone who basically took that line of argument. Claimed that I "didn't know how to play a shield healer properly". To which I replied:

AoE shield is less than 10% of your hp bar at most gear levels, even less than that for a tank. If that is the difference between life and death in your group, they need to learn what reprisal / feint-addle / troubadour / sacred soil (etc) are.

If you're a SCH and you need an aoe shield, you're going to deploy a Critlo or at a base level, an Adlo or just not shield and fey blessing / Indom the damage.

But please, tell me how I don't know how to shield /s