We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[AmiableApkallu]

We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

My own take is that I and the party should never wipe the same way, to the same thing, "twice" during a run. It doesn't matter whether it's a dungeon, trial, or raid. It doesn't matter which expansion we're in.

Mistakes happen. Finger fumbles happen. Mechanics catch people by surprise. Mental cobwebs need a little cleaning. Etc. All I ask is that we learn and do better on the next attempt.

And my own experience is that people are generally reasonable when it comes to talking through things through after a wipe because at that point, it's undeniable that something went wrong. Explain the missed mechanic. Explain what needs to happen. Don't worry about assigning blame.

[Bukachu]

Who's getting locked out of stuff through skill based matchmaking? I advocate skill based matchmaking so people aren't told to play a certain way, they can play how they want with others that play the same. So what's the point of all your words. what your effectively saying is skilled players playing the way they want to should have their enjoyment ruined cause people want to be carried through things by playing the way they want to, hence why I advocate skill based matchmaking, so casuals can play the way they want together and skilled players can play the way they want together, simple.

no one's getting "locked out of stuff" through skill based matchmaking because there're games/gamemodes that can have skill based match making, and there are games that leave skill based matching to player base itself in relevant content. first one obviously tries to most or less accurately tell who's on what level of skill trees, in most cases based on amount of "winning" (e.x MOBA games, shooter games, card games) or amount of completion they have (for example if you were only allowed to do Ultimate if you've done Savage, or deep dungeons where you can queue certain levels only after you've done the previous (e.x you can queue 51-60, only if you've done 41-50)). you cant do that, to FF normal dungeons, because that's the base content, the very bottom, and its close to impossible to properly segregate people without losing portion of player base, or changing the fundamentals of the game, because normal dungeons have entry level of close to 0, you literally get level 16 or something and can go ahead and do them. Like I said if you think you know a good way to do that, im all ears, if im wrong ill admit it.

And no there's nothing wrong with telling someone to play a certain way, especially if they're new to the game, and especially if they're playing wrong.

[Yeastyloins]

That it would not be in the game's interest to match you with the newbie that is great at playing the game and already can do a lot more than the minimum requirements. It would be in the game's interest to match you with players who are deficient, so that the average skill level and duty completion time stays the same.

If you don't like to do Dead End with bad players, you have the same option the bad player has, duty support.

You do what the game wants so you get the rewards, you wouldn't do it if it didn't give you the rewards. You can of course decide that the rewards aren't worth the inconvenience you are incurring in which case the scale of duty completion might tip into a direction for Square Enix to take action.

Play with bad players and take 17 mins to do a dungeon or take 25 mins to do with NPCs? Rather pull my eye out of their sockets.

[Yeastyloins]

MMR (matchmaking ranking), also known relatively loosely as 'skill based matchmaking', is the domain of competitive gaming, where you don't play with the heavy hitters until you can prove you deserve to be there. League of Legends is a prime example of a game that leans heavily on MMR.

In MMORPGs, you'll find some simple measure of MMR in competitive PvP. Other leaderboards in an MMORPG are generally the result of 'time spent in game' rather than skill level. There's a list of 'skill based' MMORPG games out there (although I'd call them "partially influenced by concepts of a skill-based system").

Would I be against such a thing in an MMORPG? Not particularly. It's there already in some games with PvP elements. Would it work for PvE? It's easy to say "skill based", but what skills are we measuring here?

What "skills" would you be looking for that are not already available to you from third-party sites? Considering the fact that damage meters will never be available in-game, what criteria would you use to determine if you are 'gold' or 'platinum' or 'diamond' level worthy? I know that the only criteria currently used is "did you complete the objective within the time limit assigned?".

The thing is that that SE could calculate DPS in a run, true healing done (not overhealing), overhealing, damage taken, damage mitigated themselves, and time completed. They could take all of that information, compare it other players internally, give you ranking WITHOUT assigning a percentile rank or showing the player the actual number of DPS/True HPS/Overhealing/Damage Mit/Damage Taken which is fundamentally what logs are giving you when you look at somebody's parse in a fight. You just rank players in those categories as Poor, Good, Great and show the player but not the party that information except the ranking for completion time. Make an explicit rule in the ToS against asking players about their ranking unless they share that information with harassment rules in effect. People who get a great ranking get 1k extra gil added to their reward per category, or something that is conceivable small but adds up overtime.

Guess what happens next. Mr. Tank who gets a poor for damage mitigation goes "why do I keep getting poor rankings for mit?". He then goes looks up about damage mit techs and begins to understand that not only it will improve his rankings but it makes him a more enjoyable person to play with, which makes him more comfortable playing tank. The healer that gets a poor ranking in overhealing despite the party living goes "why do i keep getting this?" looks stuff up means to heal a bit more efficiently which gives them time to play around with using their "dps kit" (lmao). The DPS who gets poor damage ranks might check something to learn the importance of positionals, when to use their AoE rotation.

[Yeastyloins]

And no there's nothing wrong with telling someone to play a certain way, especially if they're new to the game, and especially if they're playing wrong.

Apparently there is according to the majority of people posting in this thread.

[Iustitia-sama]

no one's getting "locked out of stuff" through skill based matchmaking because there're games/gamemodes that can have skill based match making, and there are games that leave skill based matching to player base itself in relevant content. first one obviously tries to most or less accurately tell who's on what level of skill trees, in most cases based on amount of "winning" (e.x MOBA games, shooter games, card games) or amount of completion they have (for example if you were only allowed to do Ultimate if you've done Savage, or deep dungeons where you can queue certain levels only after you've done the previous (e.x you can queue 51-60, only if you've done 41-50)). you cant do that, to FF normal dungeons, because that's the base content, the very bottom, and its close to impossible to properly segregate people without losing portion of player base, or changing the fundamentals of the game, because normal dungeons have entry level of close to 0, you literally get level 16 or something and can go ahead and do them. Like I said if you think you know a good way to do that, im all ears, if im wrong ill admit it.

And no there's nothing wrong with telling someone to play a certain way, especially if they're new to the game, and especially if they're playing wrong.

The easiest way would to use someones average dps as a decider, easy enough to think of tbh and I don't know why you're talking about new low level characters, what matchmaking decides peoples groupings without even playing yet lmao. Players would have until 50 till matchmaking kicks in, gives people enough time to get the hang of the game.
Don't know why you think the fundamentals would be changed lol its not changing the game, and for all we know they may already have a form of matchmaking that we don't know about. Your "reasons" all sound baseless and made up, losing playerbase? lmao, I suppose the only ones to leave are the bottom of the barrel players who can't clear the base content without being carried, no big loss.
Sounds like alot of people want to wallow in mediocrity and bring others down with them.

[Iustitia-sama]

The thing is that that SE could calculate DPS in a run, true healing done (not overhealing), overhealing, damage taken, damage mitigated themselves, and time completed. They could take all of that information, compare it other players internally, give you ranking WITHOUT assigning a percentile rank or showing the player the actual number of DPS/True HPS/Overhealing/Damage Mit/Damage Taken which is fundamentally what logs are giving you when you look at somebody's parse in a fight. You just rank players in those categories as Poor, Good, Great and show the player but not the party that information except the ranking for completion time. Make an explicit rule in the ToS against asking players about their ranking unless they share that information with harassment rules in effect. People who get a great ranking get 1k extra gil added to their reward per category, or something that is conceivable small but adds up overtime.

Guess what happens next. Mr. Tank who gets a poor for damage mitigation goes "why do I keep getting poor rankings for mit?". He then goes looks up about damage mit techs and begins to understand that not only it will improve his rankings but it makes him a more enjoyable person to play with, which makes him more comfortable playing tank. The healer that gets a poor ranking in overhealing despite the party living goes "why do i keep getting this?" looks stuff up means to heal a bit more efficiently which gives them time to play around with using their "dps kit" (lmao). The DPS who gets poor damage ranks might check something to learn the importance of positionals, when to use their AoE rotation.

I personally would choose against giving players any info on it at all, as people cannot be trusted with that info ingame, and we already have fflogs for finding out precisely how we are doing.

[Iustitia-sama]

MMR (matchmaking ranking), also known relatively loosely as 'skill based matchmaking', is the domain of competitive gaming, where you don't play with the heavy hitters until you can prove you deserve to be there. League of Legends is a prime example of a game that leans heavily on MMR.

In MMORPGs, you'll find some simple measure of MMR in competitive PvP. Other leaderboards in an MMORPG are generally the result of 'time spent in game' rather than skill level. There's a list of 'skill based' MMORPG games out there (although I'd call them "partially influenced by concepts of a skill-based system").

Would I be against such a thing in an MMORPG? Not particularly. It's there already in some games with PvP elements. Would it work for PvE? It's easy to say "skill based", but what skills are we measuring here?

What "skills" would you be looking for that are not already available to you from third-party sites? Considering the fact that damage meters will never be available in-game, what criteria would you use to determine if you are 'gold' or 'platinum' or 'diamond' level worthy? I know that the only criteria currently used is "did you complete the objective within the time limit assigned?".

No where did I say to add damage meters ingame or give players viewable skill based ranking, it would be all internal, skillbased matchmaking doesn't have to be competitive. All the devs have to do is keep it all under the hood where they can see but players cant see, not exactly hard.

[Bukachu]

The thing is that that SE could calculate DPS in a run, true healing done (not overhealing), overhealing, damage taken, damage mitigated themselves, and time completed. They could take all of that information, compare it other players internally, give you ranking WITHOUT assigning a percentile rank or showing the player the actual number of DPS/True HPS/Overhealing/Damage Mit/Damage Taken which is fundamentally what logs are giving you when you look at somebody's parse in a fight. You just rank players in those categories as Poor, Good, Great and show the player but not the party that information except the ranking for completion time. Make an explicit rule in the ToS against asking players about their ranking unless they share that information with harassment rules in effect. People who get a great ranking get 1k extra gil added to their reward per category, or something that is conceivable small but adds up overtime.

Guess what happens next. Mr. Tank who gets a poor for damage mitigation goes "why do I keep getting poor rankings for mit?". He then goes looks up about damage mit techs and begins to understand that not only it will improve his rankings but it makes him a more enjoyable person to play with, which makes him more comfortable playing tank. The healer that gets a poor ranking in overhealing despite the party living goes "why do i keep getting this?" looks stuff up means to heal a bit more efficiently which gives them time to play around with using their "dps kit" (lmao). The DPS who gets poor damage ranks might check something to learn the importance of positionals, when to use their AoE rotation.

SE could calculate DPS in a run but, that means 0.

If tank pulls w2w, your DPS will be different, compared to if tank pulls 1,2,3 packs.

like, DPS is such an irrelevant number in dungeons. not to mention certain classes will do more DPS in different scenarios.

and dont forget gear exists, which will change your DPS obviously.

even so, lets say you segregate people by "their dps done", what about healers?

Like yeah, for logs DPS does work to a certain degree, but main purpose of logs was never the parse, its to read the fight, hence why healer logs are quiet literally irrelevant. because 1. in order to "heal" a lot, people need to take damage a lot, which ultimately makes them worse, so ultimately, the more you heal, the worse your group is LOL.

And for tanks, sure you can measure damage taken/damage mitigated, but less you pull, less damage you'll take. you could pull one pack at a time, use all your mitigation, pull as slowly as possible, maybe even chill between packs until all your mitigation is up again.
+ kitting would mean you take less damage, while DPS would do less DPS due to adds moving.
and 99 other factors that I could list for either role, and aside from the fact that ranking for each role means too little, there's also a massive conflict of interest between each role.

[Bukachu]

The easiest way would to use someones average dps as a decider, easy enough to think of tbh and I don't know why you're talking about new low level characters, what matchmaking decides peoples groupings without even playing yet lmao. Players would have until 50 till matchmaking kicks in, gives people enough time to get the hang of the game.
Don't know why you think the fundamentals would be changed lol its not changing the game, and for all we know they may already have a form of matchmaking that we don't know about. Your "reasons" all sound baseless and made up, losing playerbase? lmao, I suppose the only ones to leave are the bottom of the barrel players who can't clear the base content without being carried, no big loss.
Sounds like alot of people want to wallow in mediocrity and bring others down with them.

no idea how you're gonna talk about "bottom" of the barrel when your med parse is between green and grey and not even in highest difficulty raids kekw but yeah, you do you, whatever makes you sooth your ego, at least you did better than some random guy in level 27 dungeon amarite?