We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[Avoidy]

The game basically only puts pressure on healers in normal mode multiplayer content, and that pressure comes exclusively from other players being atrocious at the game. Everyone else can just do whatever they want and nothing will change outside of some rare niche fights that have the balls to include a dps check or a tank mechanic -- and of course, in those fights, wipes are common. Shout out to Titania in trial roulette, which continues to be a crapshoot because tanks won't just do the bare minimum and turn on their stance.

But no. Outside of those niche areas of the MSQ where some dev was having a good day and decided to spread responsibility evenly, it doesn't matter what you do. If you're a DPS, you can tap [1] for the whole fight. "Who cares." There is no enrage. There's no shield to break. There's no add phase with a timer. Your performance does not matter for about 80 levels. Maybe more. And as a tank, you can get away with knowing nothing about your kit if you just single pull all of your dungeons, which is what most random tanks do by default. But if you decide to heal, then you're stuck dealing with these types of people every goddamned day. And I think this is the actual reason healer queues are always instant for this kind of content; nobody wants to put up with that for 20+ minutes. And it's only this bad because the game never encourages anyone to get better. From start to finish, you can sort of just play horribly and lean on the one person in your group who knows what they're doing. If you heal, you're stuck cleaning it up; and even that doesn't necessarily create a better healer. It just creates panicky overhealing healers who heal too much and waste MP because they're conditioned to expect a shit-hits-the-fan scenario every 20 seconds. Obviously this changes when you hit more challenging content, but we're talking about getting these people in roulettes.

To solve this, they should make hall of the novice mandatory and then update it with relevant information. If I recall correctly, the tank tutorial basically encourages you to single pull and gives out information that hasn't been relevant in years. If it changed with endwalker, then I'm just wrong on this but either way it's not like the tanks have magically gotten better so clearly it needs work. And for DPS, some kind of in-game grading system is necessary. Like, loads of DPS don't even know they're performing poorly because it's not like there's a meter in game or anything. And I can't exactly say "wow, we're seeing mechanics I've never seen before. Maybe press your buttons, DPS" because that's harassment. So the game should have a mini evaluation at the end of trials or dungeons or w/e, that only the player can see, that tells them stuff like "hey you're a bard but you didn't actually use any songs," or "we noticed you never used technical step" or "you realize samurai has a DoT, right? you should keep that up as often as possible." etc. There's already a site like this called xivanalysis, but it works off of tools we're not allowed to use, so the game devs should take responsibility and provide something similar in the game so people who don't know about parsing tools or don't want to use them can improve. Also stuff like stone sky sea should just be a setting you enable at any training dummy without having to unlock it. Loads of people don't even know it exists until they google it.

[Shibi]

...it is unfair to force me to put in two people's worth of effort because one of our teammates is choosing not to carry their own weight. That is the point of the thread...

It doesn't need a new thread. A bad tank in normal leveling content is not that grave a sin.

If you want to B&M then there is https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...et-s-vent.-2.0 already.

[Stanazolol]

The game basically only puts pressure on healers in normal mode multiplayer content, and that pressure comes exclusively from other players being atrocious at the game. Everyone else can just do whatever they want and nothing will change outside of some rare niche fights that have the balls to include a dps check or a tank mechanic -- and of course, in those fights, wipes are common. Shout out to Titania in trial roulette, which continues to be a crapshoot because tanks won't just do the bare minimum and turn on their stance.

.

This is why I don't get people who say DPS have just as many responsibilities in this game. That's just not true at all. At the top level, sure, but vast majority of people are never at the top level. Tank and healer failures are obvious to the entire group, and/or party failures are more commonly and easily attributed to tank and healer failures whether rightly or wrongly. It's against TOS to even figure out where the DPS failures are.

[weebtext]

Some of you people are out of your minds, pressing a mitigation button on a pull is savage-tier gameplay? lmao get real

[Carin-Eri]

There's a difference between (a) a learning player who puts effort to try & play better vs (b) player who clearly have played considerable amount of time but chooses not to pick up their slack. Both will most likely result in less than optimum scenario but their intent differs. OP mentioned the tank in question was in Ktisis & insists that they should suck it up and deal with their bad practices because nobody in the past had commented them for that. At that point it's not unreasonable to think: "What is this player had been doing for the past 86 levels of gameplay?". To put into perspective into your mained RDM job, that's like you getting into Ktisis but still fumbling over the Dualcast gimmick of your job that you unlocked from lv50. Or your past main BRD: not knowing what songs are.

Based on the personal thread you have made in the past, I do not think you qualifies as player (b). This thread isn't about you.

Kind of you to say - feel a little better about this now

[Striker44]

snip

There's so much subjectivity there it's hard to even fathom where to begin. What does "no idea what they're doing" actually mean? You said you've done thousands of roulettes. What do you consider a "completely unacceptable" number of under-performing tanks? A thousand? A hundred? A dozen? Two?

You say you spoke to the person "politely," but in your own description of what you said here, you include things like "I'm having to tryhard to keep you alive," which I suspect most reasonable people would not consider a polite way of phrasing anything. There's also a lot of self-aggrandizement in the post and it just grips with condescension when you say things like "a level 90 savage raider like me." Get off your high horse already.

Frankly, it's completely reasonable to think mitigation gets mainly saved for bosses instead of trash, because A.) that's how it's frequently done in other MMO's, and B.) it's the bosses that have actual "tankbuster" abilities where Player Random can think that's where they absolutely need to make sure they have their mitigation ready, and the "death by a thousand cuts" from a trash pack just doesn't register the same way in people's minds.

Why do you have to take more responsibility? Because you chose to take on the role of healer. In no MMO ever has the "responsibility" been viewed equally among all party members. Tanks and Healers always bear the brunt of the responsibility. It's the reason you can play any MMO you want and those roles will always be in more need compared to DPS.

I was going to make what I felt was an awesome flow-chart to respond to this thread, but in the end only the last part really felt like it was needed:

-Are you making an enormous paragraphs-long post to rant about what you perceive as below-average players in casual content in a casual MMO, and then returning to the thread repeatedly to launch numerous other paragraph-long responses insisting you must absolutely be correct and anyone disagreeing with you must be wrong?

A.) If so, I think perhaps it's time to take a little break from the game. Taking a game this seriously can't be good for anyone's health.
B.) There is no B...

[MilkieTea]

Kind of you to say - feel a little better about this now

No yeah, to summarize a lot of players problems with these kinds of players even further: They're deliberately avoiding learning anything about their chosen class and forcing others to pick up the slack.

If you're trying, you're already better than 90% of players. Keep trying, you're doing great!

[AmpelioB]

yea?? why you think Shinryu, Hades, Cinder Drift, Seat of Sacrifice and so on duties are supposed to be harder?
Heck, even the rework content is making it easier for you to read act on content.

[IDontPetLalas]

There's so much subjectivity there it's hard to even fathom where to begin. What does "no idea what they're doing" actually mean? You said you've done thousands of roulettes. What do you consider a "completely unacceptable" number of under-performing tanks? A thousand? A hundred? A dozen? Two?

You say you spoke to the person "politely," but in your own description of what you said here, you include things like "I'm having to tryhard to keep you alive," which I suspect most reasonable people would not consider a polite way of phrasing anything. There's also a lot of self-aggrandizement in the post and it just grips with condescension when you say things like "a level 90 savage raider like me." Get off your high horse already.

Frankly, it's completely reasonable to think mitigation gets mainly saved for bosses instead of trash, because A.) that's how it's frequently done in other MMO's, and B.) it's the bosses that have actual "tankbuster" abilities where Player Random can think that's where they absolutely need to make sure they have their mitigation ready, and the "death by a thousand cuts" from a trash pack just doesn't register the same way in people's minds.

Why do you have to take more responsibility? Because you chose to take on the role of healer. In no MMO ever has the "responsibility" been viewed equally among all party members. Tanks and Healers always bear the brunt of the responsibility. It's the reason you can play any MMO you want and those roles will always be in more need compared to DPS.

I was going to make what I felt was an awesome flow-chart to respond to this thread, but in the end only the last part really felt like it was needed:

-Are you making an enormous paragraphs-long post to rant about what you perceive as below-average players in casual content in a casual MMO, and then returning to the thread repeatedly to launch numerous other paragraph-long responses insisting you must absolutely be correct and anyone disagreeing with you must be wrong?

A.) If so, I think perhaps it's time to take a little break from the game. Taking a game this seriously can't be good for anyone's health.
B.) There is no B...

By the time that someone has hit mid-level they should be aware of how mitigation works in FFXIV so the excuse of "I thought I should be saving it for the boss' really isn't valid, as pointed out by OP, if someone uses a skip, the logical and considerate thing to do is take a new job into a lower level dungeon, and then a mid-level dungeon. Unfortunately someone with a skip might still get a surprise (e.g. Holminster) but that would help.

Expecting a tank to know how their mitigation works and when to use them really isn't unreasonable, no one is even asking for a perfect use- just some recognition that they can hit those buttons at all when they are likely most needed.

[Picker]

I ran into this recently as well, but it was dead ends and I was healing. Tank didn’t use any mit, not even bloodwhetting, and before the first boss I offered a bunch of tips, what’s mits to use in any situation, how the 6 seconds work, how to position packs so aoe was effective. I got told I don’t pay their sub as well. We vote kicked after first boss. It’s insane they running lvl 90 and not using any mit. Most people are receptive to this kind of feed back but there’s always some bad apples