What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

Did you read what your screenshots say or did you stop at the word "appearance"? It even says: "reduced in all respects", which he goes on to list some facets of. We know that they lost their immortality, the full span of Echo powers, the ability to use creation magicks, and more besides.

I certainly agree this should've been depicted in XIV, but it is nevertheless a canonical depiction of what occurred in XIV, authored by the lead writer for SHB and EW, detailing Emet-Selch's story as it introduces him to the crossover.

I believe the "malicious intent" thing is your own reading. Posters here were in fact disputing that malicious intent is required to be a villain. No one is trying to cast her in a purely Manichaean light.

Had the writers not wanted me to blame Venat for all the evils in the world, they should not have given her such a great role in bringing them about - again, consult the pre-6.1 Q&A on this front. And I am sorry but they are not all the same to me. Hermes throwing a cosmic temper tantrum and dooming all life because of his own self-indulgent sadness and discomfort with the concept of death/purpose is very much intentionally evil. Whereas with Venat I can at least agree that her motives were not purely destructive, even if they caused her own people a great harm.

[Theodric]

Personally I don't think an entire species or civilisation have any obligation to bend over and appease the whims of either Venat or Hermes. Especially when neither deigned to actually speak up in good faith in regards to their concerns.

The story was written in such a way as to have both blame the victims of their genocidal rampages - which is pretty questionable in itself.

Venat is basically Yunalesca - a well meaning individual who did not act out of malice but who still was very much a villain by virtue of trying to perpetuate a cycle of intense suffering.

[Kazemon15]

Hermes throwing a cosmic temper tantrum and dooming all life because of his own self-indulgent sadness is very much intentionally evil.

I wouldn't say his sadness was "self-indulgent". Grief is very much a thing that can mess people up. It never goes away, it stays with you for life. Causes you to be irrational. And as we saw from Elpis, most if not almost all ancients do not grieve. For all we know, Hermes was the first ancient to actually feel grief. And when everyone around you dismisses that grief out of hand time and again, it broken him down to his very soul. Yes, I agree what he did wasn't the right thing, but he wasn't in his right mind either.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

You mentioned in another post he didn't say they were identical, yet I just showed a screencap saying that they were, even using Ryne as an example. Which is what I had said in my previous post.

Yeah, well crossover games, why not add them to the actual canon story then?

Venat herself said there was no kindness or justice in the things she had did, yet everyone here is talking about how she intentionally did it with malicious intent, and therefore, she's this evil being with no black or white morality. The entire story is not black or white. It's a muddled gray area. All the characters are "evil" to some extent. No one is entirely "good." But blaming Venat for all the evils in the world certainly isn't fair or right, especially when the circumstances of not understanding Hermes's grief of death caused him to go overboard. It doesn't make him right either. None were right, but none were intentionally evil either.

Would you rather he actually sundered Ryne to show how it worked? Or have you considered that maybe he just knows that there is a good chance that we will not understand the details of sundering? Do you always take everything you see at absolute face value without putting a bit of thought into it?

[Theodric]

I wouldn't say his sadness was "self-indulgent". Grief is very much a thing that can mess people up. It never goes away, it stays with you for life. Causes you to be irrational. And as we saw from Elpis, most if not almost all ancients do not grieve. For all we know, Hermes was the first ancient to actually feel grief. And when everyone around you dismisses that grief out of hand time and again, it broken him down to his very soul. Yes, I agree what he did wasn't the right thing, but he wasn't in his right mind either.

The side quests in Elpis reveal that Hermes was far from the only Ancient to experience grief. I get the impression a lot of people are simply projecting their own experiences onto Hermes when to me he's one of the most laughable attempts at showcasing mental health issues and something as complex as depression and despair in a video game to date.

[Lauront]

I wouldn't say his sadness was "self-indulgent". Grief is very much a thing that can mess people up. It never goes away, it stays with you for life.

I would say it is. He didn't realise many of his own fellow researchers shared his sentiments, implying he scarcely ever spoke to them to understand how they thought. It is not purely grief which animates him, but his inability to cope with the concept of life, terminating in death, which he cannot make sense of; he struggles to conceive of a purpose in this context. Moreover, it does not absolve him of condemning all existence to death, which he knew he was by allowing Endsinger to form her "nest" and shower everything in her path with her song of despair, including the creations he supposedly valued. He is willing to torment mankind both unsundered and sundered for his 'answer', still isn't satisfied in the process of getting it (as Amon) and still thinks mankind, both sundered and unsundered, is unworthy of living. His decisions are not purely in the heat of the moment, but calculated. To me this is all exceedingly self-indulgent and very much driven by spite.

And as we saw from Elpis, most if not almost all ancients do not grieve.

You should replay those scenes, too. We are shown, emphatically, that they even possessed funeral rites for their living creations which were killed accidently. Where do you derive this notion from that they did not grieve, let alone to the tune of "most"? There is also a separate quest, dealing with a mentor and her mentee, making her peace with the decision of her mentor to pass on and be reborn. Nevermind Pandaemonium and Eric.

For all we know, Hermes was the first ancient to actually feel grief. And when everyone around you dismisses that grief out of hand time and again, it broken him down to his very soul. Yes, I agree what he did wasn't the right thing, but he wasn't in his right mind either.

Yeah, no, he wasn't the first. And not only that, but his fellow researchers indulged his requests. Perhaps a bit too much. He clearly wasn't in his right mind but not because only he felt emotions...

[Kazemon15]

Would you rather he actually sundered Ryne to show how it worked? Or have you considered that maybe he just knows that there is a good chance that we will not understand the details of sundering? Do you always take everything you see at absolute face value without putting a bit of thought into it?

I don't understand what you mean by this? I absolutely do not see "everything at face value." Just because I don't agree with your interpretation of what the story means does not mean I "don't put thought" into what the story is trying to say.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

I don't understand what you mean by this? I absolutely do not see "everything at face value." Just because I don't agree with your interpretation of what the story means does not mean I "don't put thought" into what the story is trying to say.

I don't care about you agreeing with me, but you do take things at face value, otherwise you wouldn't be so determined to die on that hill of Emet showing us a literal depiction of the sundering instead of a abbreviated version that is easier to digest.

And you would not insist that Ancients don't grieve - Erichthonius would like to have a word with you about that. Or the ones who asked us about better funeral rites.

[Kazemon15]

I would say it is. He didn't realise many of his own fellow researchers shared his sentiments, implying he scarcely ever spoke to them to understand how they thought. It is not purely grief which animates him, but his inability to cope with the concept of life, ended by death, which he cannot make sense of; he struggles to conceive of a purpose in this context. Moreover, it does not absolve him of condemning all existence to death, which he knew he was by allowing Endsinger to form her "nest" and shower everything in her path with her song of despair, including the creations he supposedly valued. He is willing to torment mankind both unsundered and sundered for his 'answer', still isn't satisfied in the process of getting it (as Amon) and still thinks mankind, both sundered and unsundered, is unworthy of living. His decisions are not purely in the heat of the moment, but calculated. To me this is all exceedingly self-indulgent and very much driven by spite.



You should replay those scenes, too. We are shown, emphatically, that they even possessed funeral rites for their living creations which were killed accidently. Where do you derive this notion from that they did not grieve, let alone to the tune of "most"? There is also a separate quest, dealing with a mentor and her mentee, making her peace with the decision of her mentor to pass on and be reborn.



Yeah, no, he wasn't the first. And not only that, but his fellow researchers indulged his requests. He clearly wasn't in his right mind but not because only he felt emotions...

I'm currently in the process of replaying the entire game from 2.0. I have not gotten to replay Endwalker yet but I will take a closer look once I get to this part.

I don't care about you agreeing with me, but you do take things at face value, otherwise you wouldn't be so determined to die on that hill of Emet showing us a literal depiction of the sundering instead of a abbreviated version that is easier to digest.

And you would not insist that Ancients don't grieve - Erichthonius would like to have a word with you about that. Or the ones who asked us about better funeral rites.

Yeah, you automatically know everything about me from the few posts I mentioned. I don't care what you say either in that case, and I will not reply to you anymore for being extremely rude and attacking me for having a different viewpoint.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

Yeah, you automatically know everything about me from the few posts I mentioned. I don't care what you say either in that case, and I will not reply to you anymore for being extremely rude and attacking me for having a different viewpoint.

My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.