What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Causante]

I mean, they are different situations.

Venat/Hydaelyn however doesn't fall into these pits. She has no need to possess bodies, until canocially very recently and even then it's short enough that she wouldn't suffer ill effects, she doesn't have Emet's sense of exhaustion and need to rationalise her deeds, she knows exactly what she's done, and all the good and ill that's come of it and she never put herself in a situation where she'd lose sight of why she was doing what she was doing the same way Elidibus did.

Besides she and Zodiark while being, as Emet called them "the eldest primals" they are for the most part just powerful creations. Zodiark's tempering wasn't even intentional, it was a side effect of how big a creation he was and the large scale he was designed to act on. Venat meanwhile is noted to have been a smaller creation, so of course unintentional tempering wouldn't happen.

You do make resonable arguments, but I'm not sure if I agree. While she has no need to posses bodies and isn't afflicted with alzheimer's disease like Elidibus, she is still responsible, at least partially (~70% in my opinion) for the fall and erasure of her beloved civilization. And after that she has to witness 12k years of sundering life with great periods of war, disease, tragedy and death that didn't exist before and were direct results of her actions. That would require some rationalisations.

About her tempering capabilities, I do agree that Zodiark was the superior summon by far, but Hydaelyn still is an unsundered primal summoned by unconventional strengthening methods (soul sacrifice) so I still think it's very odd how most primal rules don't apply to her specially in regard to sundered life given the strong difference in aether.

[MikkoAkure]

About her tempering capabilities, I do agree that Zodiark was the superior summon by far, but Hydaelyn still is an unsundered primal summoned by unconventional strengthening methods (soul sacrifice) so I still think it's very odd how most primal rules don't apply to her specially in regard to sundered life given the strong difference in aether.

It's much in the same way that the "fixed" primal summoning we do using up the Mothercrystal, aether that Hydaelyn has literally been sitting on for eons, and techniques untainted by Ascians don't temper anyone. The Lopporits say that the primal summoning we had seen up to that point were purposefully designed to temper people. Zodiark tempered because he was built on such a massive scale with his aether deeply aspected to darkness that he couldn't help but make the aether of those around him tip into darkness and thus be tempered. Hydaelyn wasn't on the same scale, though was built the same, and she also doesn't physically roam around the world greeting people in person so there's not really any point where she could have tempered people.

If she could temper people from the Mothercrystal, then literally the entire world is tempered because the lifestream all congregates around where she lives and everyone's aether would be marked with hers when they die and are eventually reincarnated.


Granted, a lot of the explanation of tempering and primals that was brought to light in EW sounded like the writers trying to write themselves out of a hole of their own making, but at least they tried explaining it and didn't leave it completely to wild interpretation.

[Causante]

It's much in the same way that the "fixed" primal summoning we do using up the Mothercrystal, aether that Hydaelyn has literally been sitting on for eons, and techniques untainted by Ascians don't temper anyone. The Lopporits say that the primal summoning we had seen up to that point were purposefully designed to temper people. Zodiark tempered because he was built on such a massive scale with his aether deeply aspected to darkness that he couldn't help but make the aether of those around him tip into darkness and thus be tempered. Hydaelyn wasn't on the same scale, though was built the same, and she also doesn't physically roam around the world greeting people in person so there's not really any point where she could have tempered people.

If she could temper people from the Mothercrystal, then literally the entire world is tempered because the lifestream all congregates around where she lives and everyone's aether would be marked with hers when they die and are eventually reincarnated.


Granted, a lot of the explanation of tempering and primals that was brought to light in EW sounded like the writers trying to write themselves out of a hole of their own making, but at least they tried explaining it and didn't leave it completely to wild interpretation.

I do think that Hydaelyn should be capable of tipping the sundered aether into light since she is able to interact with the player character, possess Krille and even vanish Minfilia. The people that were exposed to her powers should show some signs at least. But it is indeed the truth that they tried to give a reason why the tempering does not happen in some cases. I just found it hard to reason with and very unsatisfying.

In the end, I don't think it would be better if it had happened either, but I also think that making Hydaelyn a primal was a mistake if this was the kind of story they were going with. Because in the end, the game tells you constantly that summoning primals to solve your problems is bad and should be avoided at all costs, but just in this very specific case that they show right near the end of the story arc when the right people do it the right way it is okay.

I would also like to thank you for your thoughtful reply that made me reflect on things that I did not think on too much before.

[myahele]

About her tempering capabilities, I do agree that Zodiark was the superior summon by far, but Hydaelyn still is an unsundered primal summoned by unconventional strengthening methods (soul sacrifice) so I still think it's very odd how most primal rules don't apply to her specially in regard to sundered life given the strong difference in aether.

According to the Watchman, Hydaelyn also sundered herself too.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

According to the Watchman, Hydaelyn also sundered herself too.

That's dumb, since how would she continue in her purpose if she forgot what her purpose was? Unless she created an attack for a specific purpose and instead of making it not affect her at all, she just made it not wipe her memory nor regress her brain back to stone age. Regardless, that's freaking dumb.

[Larirawiel]

According to the Watchman, Hydaelyn also sundered herself too.

Really? This makes the story even dumber. Because it means, every rejoining does not only strengthen Zodiark, it strengthens Hydaelyn too. So when all rejoinings would be complete, Hydaelyn would be propably be able to sunder Zodiark again. And the second thing is, we propably did not kill Hydaelyn completely. There are parts of her on other shards.


Cheers

[Vyrerus]

I don't believe it's discussed enough how Venat/Hydaelyn has no downsides

Well, she does have downsides. They only get passing mentions. Which are either forgotten or ignored.

The biggest downside is that in order to even give her the Hydaelyn powers, she had to sacrifice all of her followers to herself, souls and all. They should have names, and they should be talked about, but they aren't.

She doesn't decay of the mind as much as the Ascians, because she didn't have to live in the real world. She had her follower's lives sustain her form after all, and she never once left her primal form like Elidibus.

And it's just my opinion, as the game's cast sure don't make any commentary on it, but Hydaelyn droning on still about Light = Good, Dark = Bad after everything we've been through seems to me like a crack in her mind. She sounds like a zealot, but of course, she is her own biggest fan anyway.

It's less about tropes or being cliche and more about suddenly making the character who supports us and saves our life on multiple occasions over 10 years into a villain just because people caught the feels for the Ascians isn't great writing. Considering Venat was in 3rd place in popularity polls in Japan, I don't think she's the universally panned figure you think she is.

Ultimately the game isn't about the Ancients.

They already started walking towards that path in Shadowbringers when Emet-selch revealed the truth of the world to us. They further committed to that path with the dialogue option choice on the boat at the very start of EW. They hammered in that Venat was a villain when she chose to Sunder the world rather than find a better way. Specifically, she is an Anti-Villain, but a villain nonetheless. Yet, they chose to do a nasty thing to try and shy away from that truth by having the cast completely validate her actions while lauding her with praise. It is most akin to Watchmen, but instead of the other Watchmen taking issue with Ozymandias, they all pat him on the back and tell him, "Great job!"

Which is totally the writers committing to what they like to do, which is write the unexpected. Everyone expected Hydaelyn to be full on villain, so they put, "For the greatest good, the ends justified the means" by her in the script. Of course, since they love writing the unexpected, what happens in Elpis? Well, when you hear about Kairos the first time you think, "Oh, everyone will get their memories wiped. Tragic." But they couldn't resist subversion even in a single instance, so they let Hydaelyn keep her memory.

There are plenty of people who take issue with her, because she was informed and stayed informed. Which should give her the agency to change things, but she opted to still choose the unknown instead of the people she claimed to love.

As for the popularity poll? Oh jee, in a generation where sexuality is an all important, all encompassing facet of people's identity from their surface to their core I can't imagine why a super hot lady would be high in popularity. Whispers: (Same reason as Emet-selch. She's hot, and people want to bang her.)

And I think they still wound up subverting Hydaelyn vs. The Darkness completely. They just chose to ignore that they already had, so her droning on about Hope = Light and shit sounds poetic and motivational. Nevermind that Ardbert already told us in HW that Light or Dark, doesn't matter. It's how you use them. Which Shadowbringers and Zodiark further illustrated. Hell, to even fight with Meteion who is the "true darkness" we had to use Dynamis, the fictional dark matter in order to win, anyway.

[Rulakir]

I mean, they are different situations.

I'm not arguing that. Even among the unsundered Ascians there are differences in what affected one vs. another. My point is that Venat/Hydaelyn doesn't have any of those cracks. She should have suffered emotional and psychological consequences, but she doesn't in any meaningful way. She also doesn't experience any of the downsides of being a primal, as I said. I don't see how you can say the rules apply when she's clearly exempt from them.

[Yeastyloins]

Endwalker is rehashed the plot from Gurren Lagann, change my mind.

[Vyrerus]

Endwalker is rehashed the plot from Gurren Lagann, change my mind.

Couldn't ever be. Gurren Lagann had gigantic balls, as it actually killed off Kamina in the first half. Then later in the second half it killed more characters who'd been there since Kamina and Simon had joined the rebellion.