What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

Hey now, don't forget Zenos!

[AnotherPerson]

The previous Fandaniel hadn't stepped down yet and I doubt he'd return to the star knowing there was an impending global crisis on the horizon. Hermes also wasn't the only scholar in his field. The game didn't provide sufficient proof that he was at all integral to the creation of Zodiark. Elidibus only credits him with discovering the stagnation, which Venat could have told them to look for instead.

As a result, we don't know if Zodiark was needed because they didn't know or have the opportunity to prepare. They could have come up with an alternate solution and, even if not, Zodiark could've been created before the Final Days had decimated the world to the point where the only aether to use for him was from Amaurotine sacrifices.

Also, the Final Days wasn't a test, it was a condemnation. No one was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass that test. Had the Final Days 2.0 been given more time to ravage the sundered world I'd guarantee you it would've ended up similarly to the original with the remaining inhabitants willing to do whatever it took to make it stop and return to normal. People act as if Meteion was ever going to be swayed by the people of Etheirys changing. It'd been 12k years and they were still turning into blasphemies. Sundering and millennia of suffering and despair had done jack to save Etheirys. It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

Well.. that's the problem. In the quest "The Greatest Contribution" Emet states that in the Fourteen, there's no one who specializes in the Celestial. That means the previous Fandaniel has no knowledge or skill in aetherology or dynamis like Hermes does. In that regard, the previous Fandaniel would not have been able to forestall the Final Days as they couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. Only Hermes was able to deduce the effects was a result of stagnant aether currents by viewing the aether currents based on his research in the study of aetherology.

So no, the previous Fandaniel wouldn't be able to do anything that the current Fandaniel could have in relation to figuring out how to Forestall the Final Days.

It's easy to say Venat can come with an alternate solution - but the alternate solution is to really go and stop Meteion - who already flew outside of Etheriys and the ancients had no way of actually approaching her due to the lack of technological advancement as the Ancient's sole focus & concepts was always been developing life on the star, not travel to distant stars, and definitely not to the corner of the Universe.

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed. Meteion has already seen civilizations similar to theirs heading towards the same route, which would render their 'life' meaningless. Accepting their flaws is the first step to creating a new answer for Meteion, which can lead to a new solution. However, the precursor requires the ancients to not go down the path that other dead civilizations have tried - trying to achieve perfection & bliss of the star.

A calamity like this happened to the Eorzea in the present, but rather than be condemned, we looked at it as a way to prove to Meteion that our right to exist is just as valid during our time. For us, we took on all the failures of other stars and still overcame her despair. This is the difference in outlook to the question "What gives meaning to life?"

And in the end, Meteion did get swayed by the people of Etheriys changing. It was pretty much the plot point of the Endwalkers cutscene when the WoL shares their experience to her.. she learned death and suffering will come to everyone and no one can live a life free from sorrow, but it's how we make the most of our lives during our time, which is what gives the meaning to life. Thus, did she decide to sing a final song to give birth to new life instead of singing the song of oblivion.

[Sicno]

Well.. that's the problem. In the quest "The Greatest Contribution" Emet states that in the Fourteen, there's no one who specializes in the Celestial. That means the previous Fandaniel has no knowledge or skill in aetherology or dynamis like Hermes does. In that regard, the previous Fandaniel would not have been able to forestall the Final Days as they couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. Only Hermes was able to deduce the effects was a result of stagnant aether currents by viewing the aether currents based on his research in the study of aetherology.

So no, the previous Fandaniel wouldn't be able to do anything that the current Fandaniel could have in relation to figuring out how to Forestall the Final Days.

This is only if you go the route of patching up the celestial currents. We've discussed this here before, but among the things we know about calvinball dynamis is that it can't affect aether of a certain density, that's why Meteion couldn't affect the ancients themselves, only their creations and other less dense lifeforms. The correlation with the stagnation of the celestial currents was the only thing they could find in the dark that worked, without knowing the actual cause of the problem.

At the beginning of our visit Hermes commented in the presence of Emet and Hythlodaeus that aether trumps dynamis, that knowledge is already a good starting point in finding solutions if the ancients were even half the scholars and researchers they were depicted as.

It's easy to say Venat can come with an alternate solution

It's not that she needed to find a solution HERSELF, and completely by herself. What we could have expected from her was simply to warn their kind about the situation so that then they could put their collective minds together to work on a solution.

"Oh but they wouldn't have believed her" - Well she has the echo to show things to people. Also remember she gave us a crystal with the tracing data on Meteion? She could have shown that to others. Also Emet already gave enough merit once to our ludicrous story to deem it worth of investigation because it could concern the safety of the star.

"Oh but Hermes would have opposed her" - And? We have no idea how they handled things like crime, but if the events of Elpis would have been made public I don't see why they wouldn't have forced him to cooperate and share his knowledge, considering their survival was now uncertain.

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed.


A calamity like this happened to the Eorzea in the present, but rather than be condemned, we looked at it as a way to prove to Meteion that our right to exist is just as valid during our time. For us, we took on all the failures of other stars and still overcame her despair. This is the difference in outlook to the question "What gives meaning to life?"

The "test" didn't even matter. The sundered didn't behave better than the ancients. Just look around everywhere in the world, all the atrocities perpetrated, the lack of regard for others' lives, all the wars, the genocide, the subjugation, etc. (all things our dearest "Mother" allowed to happen btw) and in the end the real reason we were able to reach Meteion and defeat her was because we just happened to have the one time traveler who was there when things went to hell and who deigned to share their findings. Only THEN someone could do something about it. Wow, an incredible "test", 10000% the sundered are better than the ancients.

[Rulakir]

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed.

Sicno already covered the rest of it, but what we see of the Ancients outside of the Zodiark Cultist Strawmen group in the post-Elpis cutscene doesn't support this. The unsundered, in particular, changed a lot in the aftermath of the sundering. Bearing in mind that the Ancients didn't know what caused the Final Days and thought that they were safe after Zodiark stopped them. What reason were they given that they needed to change?

And in the end, Meteion did get swayed by the people of Etheriys changing. It was pretty much the plot point of the Endwalkers cutscene when the WoL shares their experience to her.. she learned death and suffering will come to everyone and no one can live a life free from sorrow, but it's how we make the most of our lives during our time, which is what gives the meaning to life.

This was post defeat and Meteion was seemingly dying at that point (since she says we're her final encounter). It was more of a, "Now that I've kicked your ass so you're forced to listen to me, here's why you were wrong all this time." :P It's not like she was monitoring Etheirys, she'd already made her decision and was following through on it. I also hated that scene because if we'd just held hands with her in Elpis the whole thing could've been avoided. >_> (Don't get me started on the time loop, another thing I absolutely hated about EW. Should've done an alternate timeline like ShB.)

[Kozh]

Congratulations. You got a villainous Hydaelyn.
You got your Mommy Crystal Genocidaelyn. Your big evil angelic mommy milker crystal of sundering.

Was it worth it?

Considering I never give a fuck about Venat, safe for hating her for letting minfilia took a burden trying to save the First for 100 years alone, I would say yes.

I mean, I'm not happy with how bad the writing is. But seeing those toxic Venat stans flailing around trying to salvage their fav after the LL.... Definitely worth it X'DDD

Edit:
And also, friendly reminder that the Live Letter Q&A outright stated that trailers are made before any plot is established.
So yknow.
The story was never going to make any fucking sense following that logic.

I don't remember they say that, but I don't think it's made before ANY plot is established. The only time the trailer is outright "wrong" is HW trailer when they sue hraesvlgr model instead of nidhogg. The trailer made before all details are established, yes I can believe that. But major plot? I'm not sure.

And I don't really understand the relation between this and the discussion we were having.

[Metalface_Villain]

The story imo was done well and the theme it tackled (meaning of life, fear of dying) was an important one for many people, which is proven by so much art about the same topic existing throughout all our history.
My problem with the story was that it was a bit predictable at some points. One of the most predictable things to happen (imo) was our friends coming back which made it less emotional for me when it was supposed to pay off.
I also didn't like the conclusion of it all, the happy ending, but I know that is just a me thing. If I look at it outside of my pitch black soul, I can see and appreciate the therapeutic and cathartic effect the story has for so many people. This is more than just a story as with other ff14 stories, it also tries to and succeeds to help people and give them hope and I think that is more important than some small "mistakes" in the story telling.
I would list Zenos being criminally underutilized in the expansion as one of the issues I had but I'm almost certain that we will see him again and that this was just a small step into his character growth.
That's the issues I had with the story now regarding yours, I feel that depression, despair and fear are way bigger of a hurdle to deal with than just a primal, regardless of how strong said primal might be, so I didn't mind Zodiark getting his cheeks clapped early.
The catalyst of the final days was the despair you inherit just by being born, the search and failure of finding meaning and the arrogance of the "perfect" ancients, not a cute blue birb.
As far as Venat goes, she played the long game and the only hand she had and did what she though was best for us to finally make it. She saw the flaws in the ancients and how their fate was inevitable. Seeing us from the future means that she needs to let the sundering happen to even have the one in a million chance of success. If she didn't let it happen (which she couldn't even if she tried) we wouldn't come to the past to even show her that it will happen anyways, which would make it worse for the final days (0 chance instead of the 1 in a million we got now). The time travel here doesn't work like the mcu with new branches in reality if you change the timeline nor does it work like other movies that you change the past and the future is changed too.
The point of her story just like with the expansion in its entirety is that even if things are inevitable, there can still be hope.
If you look behind simple facts and see at it a bit more philosophically you might enjoy the story more in a second playthrough, plus remember that we got more story to come.

[aiqa]

The second half the the story was pretty nice but overall still have a few issues with.
- Huge numbers of people die, but only people we don't know or only met a few minutes ago.
- Having your friends sacrifice themselves only to be resurrected a few minutes later, cheapens the whole sacrifice theme.
- First half the the story was boring in general.
- Endings to story lines that were build up to for multiple expansions felt anti climactic. Most notably Zodiark, Zenos and the whole of the Garlean war.
- Cause of the Final Days felt a bit arbitrary.
- To many Japanese (I assume) story themes that don't make sense to a western people. Like (but by no means limited to) Hermes' story "I said something while assuming A, but now that it turns out like B I have to follow through even if it destroys the word", or "I need time to listing to Meteion, so I am going to fight you in stead of asking you to wait for 10 minutes".
- Main antagonists dialogues constantly trying to prove how evil they are.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Just chiming in to say I adored Endwalker's story. So many emotional moments! I guess it's not for everyone but I know a lot of people appreciated it.

[KageTokage]

I can't help but wonder what Yoshi meant by the 6.1 MSQ being "confusing" as per a recent post-LL interview.

Hopefully it's either in a vein similar to ShB where there's something ominous happening that gradually gets fleshed out as the story progresses, or rather that there are so many plot threads dangling that it won't be immediately obvious which one they decide to latch onto for 7.0.

I'm just praying that Endwalker is the last time they try to incorporate shenanigans like time travel and causal loops into the MSQ because I feel like the bulk of the complaints about its story stem from that and it's honestly the only major beef I have with 6.0 as well.

[aveyond-dreams]

It almost certainly means that Thancred will go off to "investigate" something, we get another mission where we play as him (for the 3rd time), Corvos will once again be namedropped and we will have a dungeon thrown somewhere in the mix, whose relevance and appeal will vary between people.

The .1 patches are usually quite weak in terms of story, if memory serves correctly. That might change assuming they actually send us over to resolve things in Garlemald instead of...random quests in Thavnair or something, though Thavnair could link to a shift in the story towards Corvos. The moon and Labyrinthos are almost certain to be retired as relevant locations and we'll visit them about as often as we visited the Peaks after the SB MSQ finished. Ultima Thule is out of the question-that's future Crafter/Gatherer beast tribe territory, and Elpis is for 8-man raids.

If they want to build up Meracydia I suppose that could also tie into Thavnair or one of the more eastern locations since its too far removed from Sharlayan/Eorzea. Overall my expectations for this first patch's story are quite low, and I'm not expecting anything truly amazing until 6.3 or beyond. We're still at a point where we're too tied down to Season 1's story and its cast, with the only interesting thing going on being the continued state of disarray in Garlemald, and how they handle that remains to be seen.

Also agreed on that last point, this game has already used and abused its fill of time travel and other nonsensical plot devices. We could seriously use a more grounded story moving forward that relies less on these things, even if Elpis was one of the highlights of the MSQ for many because of the interactions we had there. And please for goodness sake invest money into more combat scenes instead of slice of life scenes. Let the RPers and twitter fanartists take care of that front, those quests had no business being so prominent in a story about the literal end of the world.