Revert summoner to 5.55 while re-reworking it please?

[fulminating]

I know there's a non-zero number of people who hate every minute of playing it yet still play it because that number includes me. My alt has a summoner because I enjoyed playing it in shadowbringers it, and I now do unreal with it because there's always already a dragoon and I don't trust random healers in the slightest. We can also look at the data which clearly shows a high play rate with a low enjoyment rate, indicative of people either locking themselves into it with savage drops and limited tomes or people playing it for reasons other than enjoyment.

I will not pretend to know what kind of content you take it into or with what degree of competence you play, but I see no reason to weigh your anecdotes more heavily than a survey of nearly 3000.

[aveyond-dreams]

Back in Shadowbringers the content I enjoyed was mostly the extreme trials, and other more widespread content like Bozja, etc. I just wanted my dragons. I realized very early on that it wasn't going to happen with a job that was as laden with as many problems as Shb SMN. So I did them as Red Mage and Dancer instead.

The main thing retaining people now is almost certainly its thematic accuracy and spectacle, and despite the lack of buttons this may come as a surprise but there are people who like having a rotation with natural flow to it. It really is just that simple.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I think an enormous issue is that after having put up with the bad controls and glitches of Shb SMN, many of us who do enjoy the rework are glad to be rid of an experience that felt more like fighting against a keyboard than fighting against a boss. However there are people who prided themselves on manouvering these things and would gladly tell everyone else to just get good instead of realizing that something was clearly broken here.

I just want to not have to do weird things to play the job I like.

That, and for goodness sake add the remaining pantheon. A level 20 FFXI Summoner has a level 90 FFXIV Summoner beat in every capacity, from choices of summon to number of abilities. Remedy this now.

Exactly how I felt having played every version of Summoner since ARR. I never had LESS fun on the class than I did during ShB. Tons of people hated the design of the class at the time with very few defenders other than those who felt that they were more "skilled" (lol) than others for dealing with it.

[fulminating]

I think I disagree about the rotation having a flow to it - it's kind of hard to articulate, but as they are the summons get in the way of building momentum for the mandated 2m burst. I suppose one way of looking at it is summoner always feels like it's in a burst phase, but without the depth to back it up. This seems to be a fundamental issue with how summoner is currently designed - central enough that the job would need re-rebuilt from the ground up to sufficiently address. The addition of more summons, while perhaps aesthetically nice, could not help unless they add a mechanic of each primal affecting the next. This wouldn't really solve the problem with the demis or complete lack of anything to manage either though. The gauge doesn't show anything worthwhile on - it's more a countdown for the number of remaining casts than anything else, and with energy drain pretty much being a part of the demis, that's merely an afterthought now too. Even warrior with its eternally simplifying fell cleave gauge has the infuriate recast reduction to account for.

Generally the rotation is not quite the same as paladin, which despite its very flat damage curve, manages to have enough depth in both might and magic phases to largely carry the gameplay or samurai* where midare setsugekka doesn't wear out its welcome despite the frequency of casts across its rotation. There's nothing quite like summoner's, which tragically is not a compliment in this case.

I sincerely believe there hasn't been something this badly concieved in the game since 1.0.

[aveyond-dreams]

I think I disagree about the rotation having a flow to it - it's kind of hard to articulate, but as they are the summons get in the way of building momentum for the mandated 2m burst. I suppose one way of looking at it is summoner always feels like it's in a burst phase, but without the depth to back it up. This seems to be a fundamental issue with how summoner is currently designed - central enough that the job would need re-rebuilt from the ground up to sufficiently address. The addition of more summons, while perhaps aesthetically nice, could not help unless they add a mechanic of each primal affecting the next. This wouldn't really solve the problem with the demis or complete lack of anything to manage either though. The gauge doesn't show anything worthwhile on - it's more a countdown for the number of remaining casts than anything else, and with energy drain pretty much being a part of the demis, that's merely an afterthought now too. Even warrior with its eternally simplifying fell cleave gauge has the infuriate recast reduction to account for.

Generally the rotation is not quite the same as paladin, which despite its very flat damage curve, manages to have enough depth in both might and magic phases to largely carry the gameplay or samurai* where midare setsugekka doesn't wear out its welcome despite the frequency of casts across its rotation. There's nothing quite like summoner's, which tragically is not a compliment in this case.

I sincerely believe there hasn't been something this badly concieved in the game since 1.0.

Except there was, and that was Shb SMN. I'm sorry that this sort of gameplay loop doesn't appeal to you, but it is both thematically more on point and what people want is more additions that make sense in the context of the job we have now. Add an Elder Primal gauge to that builds up as we do things. Add 1-off primals that do their attack/effect and leave. Add new gems with new twists on their Astral Flow and cast timers to their rite spells. Logical solutions.

Not reversions.

[Kolsykol]

This ^

I play SMN quite a bit and often see others queue up for roulettes... SAM as well. It really is a niche group of people that are just grumpy and inflexible.

I think both yes and no.

I do think people on this forum exaggerate to rather absurd levels and are just generally addicted to outrage and tbh I actually think a lot of them actually think it's fun to be upset.
I do get the sense that people just enjoy being upset about things it's like they get a kick out of it and they turn to hyperbole and you can see it whenever people read a billion things into every word Yoshi-P says that he didn't say.
But people will take something harmless he said and spin it into whatever the fotm issue they're mad about is and twist it to be something spiteful as if Yoshi-P and the devs hate us or something it's just ridiculous...
People do this outside of FFXIV too.

I do think there is truth tho to the notion that most people think SMN is lacking and a bit boring and repetitive.
But most people I don't think have these overwhelmingly extreme negative thoughts about it to the point of absurdity.
It's the same with the Kaiten situation too, I don't think most people genuinely believe that it '' ruined SAM ''.
That's a very extreme take.
I think most SAM players are still playing it and having fun even if they're unhappy about it.

I do think it might be true that a majority of people don't feel that SMN is where it should be.
But I don't believe that the most extreme takes you see on this forum represent that majority.

[remiff]

They have never done, and will never do a full revert of a job.

You have to get used to the idea the endwalker summoner is and will remain brain dead,

not enough spells, zero management, an etherflow system that doesn't match with the new gameplay,
I think the concept as a whole is interesting, but the summoner is as incomplete as a level 60 job, and some choices about how spells work are extremely bad,
honestly, they should add a resource management system, I don't think dots revert are a solution, even if I regret their losses a little.

They should seriously work on it for 7.0 and fix its biggest flaws, and this absolutely useless carbuncle is heresy.

Adjustments they could easily make for 7.0.

-Split pheonix/bahamut on a different button
and let the players choose the summon they want depending on the situation,
Bahamut Very High DPS/High risk with 1.5s cast return, Pheonix Medium DPS/ High mobility/Healing/1 free rez spells ''delete the regular ressurection''.
Similar to the pvp system for the player choice + add Megaflare to Demi-Bahamut
-Split Crimson cyclone in a diffèrent Button into a II stack maximum spell + 1 permanent stack when ifrit is summoned,
Give two stacks of crimson strike when ifrit is summoned, and make it a range spell like the pvp system.
'' the other ifrit spells keep a consistent cast.''
- Garuda '' no change ''
- Titan'' no change ''
- Ruin IV Max II stack no timelimit guaranteed after using a crimson cyclone ''risk taking = reward''
make ruin iv more powerful.
- Put a new resource management system and rework and rename Fester, delete energy siphon/drain.
'' Carbuncle accumulate ether for the summoner and gives it 1 stack every 15s, max IV,
Use painflare consume I stack, Use the new Fester '' rename/rework'' consume II stack,
when the 4 stacks are consumed unlocks 1 extremely powerful spell 'elemental surge'.

[PrincessLily]

This forum has turn into whiners, nothing wrong with summoner now. more primal and tune up maybe.

[fulminating]

Even if it did 1,000,000 dps and had every primal as a summon it would not address the fundamental issue with the job. Specifically that there's nothing there. Even stormblood machinist had gameplay, endwalker summoner is just barren beneath the animations.

[aveyond-dreams]

Adjustments they could easily make for 7.0.

-Split pheonix/bahamut on a different button
and let the players choose the summon they want depending on the situation,
Bahamut Very High DPS/High risk with 1.5s cast return, Pheonix Medium DPS/ High mobility/Healing/1 free rez spells ''delete the regular ressurection''.
Similar to the pvp system for the player choice + add Megaflare to Demi-Bahamut
-Split Crimson cyclone in a diffèrent Button into a II stack maximum spell + 1 permanent stack when ifrit is summoned,
Give two stacks of crimson strike when ifrit is summoned, and make it a range spell like the pvp system.
'' the other ifrit spells keep a consistent cast.''
- Garuda '' no change ''
- Titan'' no change ''
- Ruin IV Max II stack no timelimit guaranteed after using a crimson cyclone ''risk taking = reward''
make ruin iv more powerful.
- Put a new resource management system and rework and rename Fester, delete energy siphon/drain.
'' Carbuncle accumulate ether for the summoner and gives it 1 stack every 15s, max IV,
Use painflare consume I stack, Use the new Fester '' rename/rework'' consume II stack,
when the 4 stacks are consumed unlocks 1 extremely powerful spell 'elemental surge'.

These are all good solutions, especially the proposed handling of Phoenix and Bahamut.