Thread: Revert summoner to 5.55 while re-reworking it please?

Originally Posted by fulminating

I think I disagree about the rotation having a flow to it - it's kind of hard to articulate, but as they are the summons get in the way of building momentum for the mandated 2m burst. I suppose one way of looking at it is summoner always feels like it's in a burst phase, but without the depth to back it up. This seems to be a fundamental issue with how summoner is currently designed - central enough that the job would need re-rebuilt from the ground up to sufficiently address. The addition of more summons, while perhaps aesthetically nice, could not help unless they add a mechanic of each primal affecting the next. This wouldn't really solve the problem with the demis or complete lack of anything to manage either though. The gauge doesn't show anything worthwhile on - it's more a countdown for the number of remaining casts than anything else, and with energy drain pretty much being a part of the demis, that's merely an afterthought now too. Even warrior with its eternally simplifying fell cleave gauge has the infuriate recast reduction to account for.

Generally the rotation is not quite the same as paladin, which despite its very flat damage curve, manages to have enough depth in both might and magic phases to largely carry the gameplay or samurai* where midare setsugekka doesn't wear out its welcome despite the frequency of casts across its rotation. There's nothing quite like summoner's, which tragically is not a compliment in this case.

I sincerely believe there hasn't been something this badly concieved in the game since 1.0.

Except there was, and that was Shb SMN. I'm sorry that this sort of gameplay loop doesn't appeal to you, but it is both thematically more on point and what people want is more additions that make sense in the context of the job we have now. Add an Elder Primal gauge to that builds up as we do things. Add 1-off primals that do their attack/effect and leave. Add new gems with new twists on their Astral Flow and cast timers to their rite spells. Logical solutions.

Not reversions.

They have never done, and will never do a full revert of a job.

You have to get used to the idea the endwalker summoner is and will remain brain dead,

not enough spells, zero management, an etherflow system that doesn't match with the new gameplay,
I think the concept as a whole is interesting, but the summoner is as incomplete as a level 60 job, and some choices about how spells work are extremely bad,
honestly, they should add a resource management system, I don't think dots revert are a solution, even if I regret their losses a little.

They should seriously work on it for 7.0 and fix its biggest flaws, and this absolutely useless carbuncle is heresy.

Adjustments they could easily make for 7.0.

-Split pheonix/bahamut on a different button
and let the players choose the summon they want depending on the situation,
Bahamut Very High DPS/High risk with 1.5s cast return, Pheonix Medium DPS/ High mobility/Healing/1 free rez spells ''delete the regular ressurection''.
Similar to the pvp system for the player choice + add Megaflare to Demi-Bahamut
-Split Crimson cyclone in a diffèrent Button into a II stack maximum spell + 1 permanent stack when ifrit is summoned,
Give two stacks of crimson strike when ifrit is summoned, and make it a range spell like the pvp system.
'' the other ifrit spells keep a consistent cast.''
- Garuda '' no change ''
- Titan'' no change ''
- Ruin IV Max II stack no timelimit guaranteed after using a crimson cyclone ''risk taking = reward''
make ruin iv more powerful.
- Put a new resource management system and rework and rename Fester, delete energy siphon/drain.
'' Carbuncle accumulate ether for the summoner and gives it 1 stack every 15s, max IV,
Use painflare consume I stack, Use the new Fester '' rename/rework'' consume II stack,
when the 4 stacks are consumed unlocks 1 extremely powerful spell 'elemental surge'.

Originally Posted by remiff

Adjustments they could easily make for 7.0.

-Split pheonix/bahamut on a different button
and let the players choose the summon they want depending on the situation,
Bahamut Very High DPS/High risk with 1.5s cast return, Pheonix Medium DPS/ High mobility/Healing/1 free rez spells ''delete the regular ressurection''.
Similar to the pvp system for the player choice + add Megaflare to Demi-Bahamut
-Split Crimson cyclone in a diffèrent Button into a II stack maximum spell + 1 permanent stack when ifrit is summoned,
Give two stacks of crimson strike when ifrit is summoned, and make it a range spell like the pvp system.
'' the other ifrit spells keep a consistent cast.''
- Garuda '' no change ''
- Titan'' no change ''
- Ruin IV Max II stack no timelimit guaranteed after using a crimson cyclone ''risk taking = reward''
make ruin iv more powerful.
- Put a new resource management system and rework and rename Fester, delete energy siphon/drain.
'' Carbuncle accumulate ether for the summoner and gives it 1 stack every 15s, max IV,
Use painflare consume I stack, Use the new Fester '' rename/rework'' consume II stack,
when the 4 stacks are consumed unlocks 1 extremely powerful spell 'elemental surge'.

These are all good solutions, especially the proposed handling of Phoenix and Bahamut.

Welp guess im of the few that like it now. No more identity crisis now.

Best option the devs can take in 7.0 is delete SMN as normal job, recreate it as a limited job and add all the summons and their "unique" skills in all kinds and variations possible to please those that want more summons. Then replace normal job SMN spot with a totally new caster.

I don’t understand what people mean when they said old SMN was a mess or that it had individual parts that didn’t work together. That’s current SMN. Aetherflow and Fester don’t interact with anything. Your Primal phases have no impact on your demi phases. Your raid buff isn’t tied to any other job system anymore (RIP Carbuncle). Everything with current SMN feels like a disjointed, silo’d system.

ShB SMN had many systems that worked with each other. Your stack management during filler affected your Bahamut phase. You conveniently needed 2 ruin stacks to enkindle Bahamut and 2 stacks to finish Bahamut phase without Swiftcast for a total of 4. Oh will you look at that, you can stack up to 4 further ruins, the exact number you need. DWT gives you the weave windows needed to summon Bahamut as well as get pet CDs out of the way. Phoenix needs a stack to weave the summon, but it doesn’t spend stacks itself so it doesn’t need DWT. Don’t need to move? Short cooldown Aetherflow and Fester still had a purpose by burning your stacks anyway. The CD of trances and DWT working the way it did made trance rushing optimal for most encounters, but you could still hold Phoenix for 10s if needed while new SMN is forced to demi almost on cooldown due to the poor implementation of the gem system, leading to jank like doing filler inside raid buffs in P2S. And so on.

Old SMN was unintuitive, sure. That’s a valid criticism. But it wasn’t disjointed and it wasn’t a mess. It had systems that interacted and worked well with each other. From a gameplay and rotation point of view, there is no meaningful difference between not being able to chain certain pet actions and not being able to press 132 instead of 123 of your melee combo.

That being said, I understand the egis were not appealing to a lot of people. I think there is merit in making a more intuitive job. I’m actually OK with the removal of 5.5 SMN.

I just think we should have gotten a much better-designed, more involved, less unfinished/half-baked rework. I do not think the current demi implementation and gem charges system is good design or a ‘good base to build upon’. This argument is a fallacious whataboutism about old SMN. The primal phases of new SMN are too similar, short and inconsequential, the rotation is excessively rigid due to tying nearly everything to summoning a demi, there’s no interaction between the primal phases or the demi phase, the demi phases are completely devoid of mechanics and so on. The current system is too heavily flawed to be used as a base.