Dragoon 6.2 Civil discussion thread

[Reimmi]

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

Personally i'd asy its a good thing because mobility abilities doing damage is bad game design imo, i was pleased when monks lost shoulder tackle, and would like to see the tanks recieve the same treatment (with new OGCD's to fill the gaps left by these skills ofc)

[Shurrikhan]

mobility abilities doing damage is bad game design imo

Why?

That seems a warrant that would apply also to fall-off AoEs (or AoE | ST shared CD pairs), or arguably CDs of any sort. You might, for their presence, be "burdened" with having to consider the value of getting x more relative hits by holding Guren some 10 seconds for adds vs. blowing Senei on CD on the boss. You might be burdened with remembering not to hit a CD on CD before a period of forced downtime.

Why should the knowledge required to optimize gap closers with damage be considered differently? What makes the cases by which it rewards you for remembering when you'll actually need that mobility so bad for gameplay? Why is that added skill ceiling considered "bad game design" despite it functioning like any other part of learning how to best use one's kit in a given fight?




With damage-dealing gap-closers, a job's performance is faintly, faintly more variable (though, only up to the point the free mobility CDs can cover all one's ability needs), but one's apm is also more faintly consistent (the button not going to waste when absent of its situations, such that it is more an actual skill than just a mechanic-cancel key). The difference is ultimately miniscule. But it is a means, like any other kit optimization, of rewarding knowledge. So what's so bad about it.

[Aco505]

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

Agreed. Making SSD a gapcloser removes 2 button presses every 2 minutes, which amounts to 8 clicks in a 6:30 minute fight. DRG is busy during even-minute bursts because of the machine-gun oGCD double weaves required, but it's honestly not overwhelming. Litany should last 20s for the DRG to make this less strict, among other things already stated in the thread. However, removing those 2 buttons for such bursts will make them feel like the odd-minute bursts, which are not particularly busy.

The difference between ShB and EW is that we press two more buttons in even-minute bursts: an extra SSD and WWT. Life Surge is included in some of these windows, but not all. In a full uptime scenario, LS coincides in the opener, in the 2-min window (this one is tight but happens pretty much automatically and after all the other buttons are already used), and in the 6-min window (although with BL up, which reduces its value). I cannot recall right now if it's up for the following ones, since there's not a full uptime fight lasting that long in the tier.

So surely two extra clicks doesn't mean that the job is too busy.

One thing though, DRG is ironically not a mobile job. Yes, we do have 5 jumps, of which 4 take us to the enemy, but the number of situations in which the jumps will coincide with a mechanic in such a way are rare, and saving jumps for such situations is a huge DPS loss.

In this tier, it happens in certain Pinax patterns in P4-1S and to return to the boss after the 2nd kick bait in Act 3 of P4-2S. In the latter scenario, EJ can be used just as well (although it admittedly requires precise timing).

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

I personally think the job still has room for at least one more expansion, even though perhaps some new actions would have to be in the same button a la Phantom Kamaitachi or Plentiful Harvest. Still, if we look at most other jobs, they're all in the same boat. Which ones actually have space to put new stuff? SMN, DNC and...? Let's think about adding new stuff to NIN, SAM, DRK, GNB... where does it go?

Even so, they can be creative and rework the job around its existing kit. It's lacking more interaction between its oGCD and GCDs, so why not go there to make things a bit more cohesive?

I have question. I keep seeing everyone suggest removing the potency from spineshatter dive, but... what's spine shattering about that? It sounds like everyone just wants one less jump ability in favor of having a gap closer along with a disengage. Reaper has that, and samurai has that, monk doesn't, and technically dragoon doesn't... is that a request for homogenization or is that viewed as nuanced design?

Not only retaining the name would be weird, but also the animation. It's a dive that points the spear towards the enemy, and it'd look really weird turned into a 0 damage gapcloser.

What they could do though is to reduce the cooldown to 30s and adjust the potency (although this'll require extra potency in other abilities to compensate for the loss of damage before the 2nd charge is learned). Now the ability fulfills mainly the role of a gapcloser, but also the role of an ability to pool for all buff windows, which would make odd windows a bit busier, but they're quite lenient as they are.

Still, my wish for SSD is a rework of its role as a damaging ability in 7.0. It's our "second" jump, it should have something more interesting to it. Same goes for our first capstone ability, DFD.

Personally i'd asy its a good thing because mobility abilities doing damage is bad game design imo, i was pleased when monks lost shoulder tackle, and would like to see the tanks recieve the same treatment (with new OGCD's to fill the gaps left by these skills ofc)

DRG's centered around jumps and they have to deal damage. As Shurrikhan replies to you after, there's a nuance to having gapclosers retain their damage. Since their DPS contribution is low, using them to keep uptime is always more beneficial than putting an extra charge under buffs. There's a certain optimization angle here.

Yes, we could remove the damage of the oGCD gapclosers that all tanks share, for example, and it could be fine but only if something else with nuance was added instead, because otherwise the potency is removed for nothing.