Dragoon 6.2 Civil discussion thread

**Curinteru** · 07-06-2022 07:58 AM

SE talked about button bloating and having too many oGCDs. However, we, main DRGs, don't want our job to change because we love it.

Well, I have the perfect solution to both opinions:

Just make Spineshatter do no damage and have 2 or 3 charges (they could even be shared with Elusive jump). BOOM! perfect DRG, we supress having to weave Spineshatter and we win some mobility without touching a job which is already (almost) perfect.

What do you guys, think?

**Shurrikhan** · 07-06-2022 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Curinteru

SE talked about button bloating and having too many oGCDs. However, we, main DRGs, don't want our job to change because we love it.

Well, I have the perfect solution to both opinions:

Just make Spineshatter do no damage and have 2 or 3 charges (they could even be shared with Elusive jump). BOOM! perfect DRG, we suppress having to weave Spineshatter and we win some mobility without touching a job which is already (almost) perfect.

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

**Reimmi** · 07-06-2022 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

Personally i'd asy its a good thing because mobility abilities doing damage is bad game design imo, i was pleased when monks lost shoulder tackle, and would like to see the tanks recieve the same treatment (with new OGCD's to fill the gaps left by these skills ofc)

**Reese_Clairdale** · 07-02-2022 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by astrabun

they said that they would be giving us detailed reasonings for changes

Not a DRG main but I have maxed jobs, I cannot envision what the job needs or what DRG mains would even want. All I can say is, if Live Letter part 2 comes around, and the changes once again boil down to trying to capture an audience that doesn't even play the game, then you'll see a similar volume of backlash compared to the SAM changes, perhaps even higher.

For all we know after part 1, and combined with past experience, "detailed reasonings" could just mean providing apologists with more ammo. I would love to be proven wrong though.

Ultimately, the changes they implement and the consequences of those changes are what I am worried about, I don't care about their reasons.

**astrabun** · 07-02-2022 02:15 AM

What I want for dragoon is for Life surge to be kept as it adds a bit extra to think about when going about the rather simple rotation, I would like star diver to remain as is with the animation lock as I like having to plan my movement around that skill since I can't double weave and I have to be pretty safe when doing it and also making sure it's not naked. I would like to see better SFX and VFX for wyrmwind as it doesn't feel punchy enough. I would like battle litany to be changed to not be a crit buff I just feel it's not really that good in that state. Then I would like a personal mit or raidwide mit for dragoon Other than that I'm happy with how it is.

As for the reasonings I think the reasonings are really important depending on what they give. Knowing what they personally want for a job is important information to know. Because then we have a better grasp of what the job should be offering, Do they want the job to be harder to play? Do they want it to be an easier job? how do they classify difficulty? there is a lot of questions without answers that I'm hoping to get even if they change dragoon in a way I don't like If I know what their philosophy and general idea for what dragoon should be is. I can right then and there decide if their vision of it is for me. I hope they give us that kind of information going forward because a lot of the changes are confusing and make no sense cause we really just don't even know what they want each job to offer and what they want them to be. With 19 jobs and soon to be more in ff I'm sure they want to cover as many different playstyles/ difficulties as possible so everyone has something they can enjoy gameplay wise.

**Azuri** · 07-02-2022 02:43 AM

It's pretty simple. Just don't have a history of making atrocious job adjustments that turn every job into mindless single button mashing and suck out all skill expression and no one will "dog on you before you even say what you're gonna do".

Oh, you wanted a constructive idea how SE can keep the job we love. Just. Don't. Touch. It.

**KuroMaboroshi** · 07-02-2022 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by astrabun

[...]Who is gonna take someone seriously who just dogs on you before you even say what you're gonna do? No one. Lets come at this with a level head and think.[...]

The problem is one of simple math: If a job is already a bad spot, then a change can at worst fail to improve it. If a job is in a good spot, like DRG currently is, then you are taking a gamble on potentially making something worse. Even if SE had a history of nothing but amazing job changes, this alone would be cause for concern amongst DRGs in the current situation. Calling that doomsaying is quite the stretch, especially since most of us don't say "the changes are going to be bad" but rather "why even take the risk that they could be bad when the job is just fine without any changes".

If the changes end up amazing, I'll be first in line to praise them, but if the changes turn out bad, then they ruined something perfectly good simply for the sake of change, not because there was any need to change anything.

Originally Posted by astrabun

[...]I want this to be for a civil and productive conversation about dragoon for those who love the job like me, To achieve that we should express the things we love and want to stay on the job because praise for aspects that we really like is just as important as things we don't and explain why we love them, What things we really dislike and would actually like to see reworked, and of course what we want the class to be difficulty wise and class fantasy wise.

Now this I can get behind. Let's start with the good:

I love that we have an incredibly set combo that almost never changes, which gives me time to worry about my oGCDs and doing raid callouts.
I love that our dot automatically refreshes in our normal rotation so I don't have to keep track of how much is left on it unless it's a situation where I want to optimise damage around a boss dying or becoming untargeteable. I dislike jobs that become too micro-manage-y by having to always keep an eye on dots.
I love the way we can delay our life of the dragon window to optimise around when buffs will be up and when bosses will be targetable.
I love that we have a small amount of positionals that are just enough to optimise around without becoming overbearing.
I also think DRG is in a great spot when it comes to the amount of oGCDs we have to worry about.

In short, I think DRG is in a great spot right now and I don't want them to change a thing about the base feel and gameplay of it. Please don't change it, SE.

Of course, there is plenty stuff to improve, too:

I don't like that our gapcloser does damage. I'd much prefer if we went back to 1 charge on Spineshatter Dive and instead had 2-3 charges on our Elusive Jump, so I don't have to sacrifice a DPS tool to optimise movement.
Then there is Stardiver and its insane animation lock. Especially on high ping its almost impossible to not clip it. All other jumps had their animation lock reduced and I'd love to see Stardiver follow suit.
Speaking of jumps, while it is not a DRG-specific issue, DRG is one of the classes that would most heavily profit from finally fixing the netcode. Jumps are more prone to clipping issues at high ping than many other skills due to their animation. I have seen videos of people double weaving jumps, which while not neccessary for DRG-rotation would be nice option to have. But it is something I can only dream of as a European playing on an NA Datacentre.
Another big issue is Eye of the Dragon: Please don't make "our" half of it it also disappear if our tethered partner dies. Being punished for someone else messing up is just annoying.
Finally (though the live letter implied this is already on the agenda to be fixed), I'd love to see an adjustment to either how stats work or how Litany works, so that my party buff isn't wasted on people with auto-crit classes.
(Bonus Round) Purely for optics, I'd also love 2 extra seconds on our DoT, so that it doesn't visually fall off at the end of the combo for half a second. I don't need any extra damage tick on it, just keep it visually there.

So that's my "wishlist" so to speak. I don't want them to change anything else, really. But none of this sounds like it would warrant the word "extensive", so I worry nontheless.

**CasterSvarog** · 07-02-2022 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by KuroMaboroshi;6007839[*

I don't like that our gapcloser does damage. I'd much prefer if we went back to 1 charge on Spineshatter Dive and instead had 2-3 charges on our Elusive Jump, so I don't have to sacrifice a DPS tool to optimise movement.

Plus with a change like this, they could move that potency into Dragonfire dive, for having such a long cooldown, it’s only got a potency of 300. From there you could upgrade it into a visual closer to the pvp lb

**astrabun** · 07-02-2022 11:11 AM

Thank you very much for you're response!

**xAFROx** · 07-02-2022 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Skill count doesn't tell the whole story, MNK is very well-designed atm.
I'd like something extra during downtime outside of burst phases but Optimal Drift and the way it interacts with the Beast Chakra is really well-designed and MNK is incredibly flexible.
Probably my biggest issue with MNK outside of the obvious like Anatman is that I rly don't like Chakras being tied to RNG.

How would you know this when you don't play MNK ( you haven't even started Pugilist )?

On that note, I can say I tried monk recently. It's only at 80, but I don't really understand what I'm supposed to be doing now with the changes made. I like the idea of blitz because final fantasy 6 reference, but I had no problem with the job prior to ew, so it's just a hit jarring and I'm hesitant to level it despite already using SAM, so the gear is all present.

A lot of that confusion on my part probably boils down to unfamiliarity, but even taking that out of the equation, it feels rather dull just repeating the normal combo for everything.

Not sure if that really counts 'good' gameplay, imo

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